What's involved to convert to roller furling?

I will leave the specs to the nacra owners but to answer a few of your other questions:
Once you do convert, do you leave the sail rolled all the time. - no on most cats (with a Portuguese turnbuckle setup) you MUST remove the jib before you can untie the forestay and lower the mast. on the hobie18 style furler (doesn't have a ring that you tie to like the Portuguese) you have a chain-plate that you use a pin to secure. I used to leave my jib furled and on my tramp (usually in a bag) for easy set up... knowing what i know now.. i wouldnt recommend it. it is an invatation to mildew, rot, UV and rodent damage (or other pest)

What sort of UV covers do you use. Are there any disadvantages to it? - they do sell a UV cover in murray's. We leave our cats out 2days/3nights a week (with jib furled).. I THINK i will blow out / trash my sail before the sun does, but i am sure the cover would be nice. (I am on my 3rd or 4th jib in 2 years)

disadvantages - well if you sail a full jib with horizontal battens.. you will need to remove them. u can add angled small battens. other disadvantages ... more parts to break.. but so what. 🙂

Anyone have any good pictures of their setups?
I will post...

Hobie style furler

Regular style (Portuguese Turnbuckle)

edited by: andrewscott, Feb 01, 2010 - 03:32 PM

Thanks Andrew, I should have added that the mast goes up in the spring, & stays up til end of season. The Cat will stay at my place all year, I don't foresee it ever being moved to another lake.
What is involved with cutting forestay, & fitting of the furling parts? I'm thinking you cut a piece out, attach swivel at top of jib, roller at bottom along with a means of tensioning rig. Do you use the standard jib, how do you prevent the stay from turning inside the zippered jib?

edited by: Edchris177, Feb 01, 2010 - 02:48 PM

Ed,
I am just converting my setup to a roller furler. Basically you need the following:

1. Roller Drum this attaches between your 2 bridle wires and forestay.
2. High Load Swivel This attaches at the top of your forestay.
3. New forestay shortened to make up for the extra lenght that the drum and swivel take up (usually about 3.5").
4. Pigtail with a bullet block on it that attaches to the swivel for your jib halyard to go through (either wire or line depending on you halyard).
5. Cam cleat that you will mount on your front beam for the furling line.
6. V cleat to mount on your 10 hole forestay adjuster to downhaul your halyard with.

That should do it. Also if you have a wind indicator on teh forestay you can get a bracket for that so it doesn't spin with the jib.

Look at this link: http://home.comcast.net/~ragenpl/nacra/nacra_roller_furling_1.htm

This is similar to my setup except he has a 3:1 downhaul on the jib. It's about what you want for your boat.

D.

OK, it's not for sale ///

edited by: KennyB, Feb 01, 2010 - 05:33 PM

V cleat to mount on your 10 hole forestay adjuster to downhaul your halyard with.

Only if you use a Hobie18 style furler.. the other type doesnt use an ajuster 🙂

This (pic from Dave's link above) is hardware overkill... you do not need all this hardware...

I use a turnbuckle (and thats a hobie style) but... I use no shackles.. i use i 4mm dynema (with cover) to secure my forstay (to tie around the ring) and 2mm dynema (with jacket) that both ties the tack to the ring, and also works as my downhaul.

This (above) can all be achieved with 1 shackle (above the pin) for a tack/downhaul

Thanks Andrew,

- my pleasure

What is involved with cutting forestay, & fitting of the furling parts? I'm thinking you cut a piece out, attach swivel at top of jib, roller at bottom along with a means of tensioning rig.

You may need a new forstay.. depends on which style drum you get (i think). the hobie style can get a fitting on the end. but the turnstyle one requires a thimble and i dont know if you have enough on the old one to add it... not sure..

Do you use the standard jib,

I do on my mystere

how do you prevent the stay from turning inside the zippered jib?

The tack of the jib is attached to the furler.. so the entire sail spins with the stay.. it doesnt matter if there is a little play (non exact twist)

edited by: andrewscott, Feb 01, 2010 - 04:58 PM

Yeah, a 3:1 downhaul on a jib is a little overkill. You don't want more tension on the jib than the forestay or you could have problems. You can probably just go with the v cleat as shown above if you don't want to tie and untie the halyard each time. That's a pretty simple setup.

Chances are you will need a new forestay, the rule of thumb is that you lose a minimum of 6" when you remove an existing fitting and replace it with a nicopress and thimble. That is too much loss for the furling rig. The good news is that you can get them to add a 6" pigtail at the top with a block swaged in for your halyard and you avoid some complexity and setup.

If you have battens in your jib (mine had little mini ones) you will likely have to remove them. No big deal they don't really do much for the jib shape anyway.

D.

Several quick points to ponder.
Harken drums and swivels are 2.5 inches each, thats 5 inches, plus a way to connect to the hound shackle, that's good for 2 inches. You should order a new forestay when you convert. If your jib has battens, simply remove them or have pocket sewn on for furling. 3:1 downhaul on the jib is good, you want more load to get good sail shape. It is ok if the forestay goes slack. The tack of the jib in the picture is attached to the drum off center. Not good. The shackle for the tack should be attached to the chain plate. Do the furler right the first time and save yourself a lot of headaches and added expenses.

Carry on gentlemen . . .

Philip,
You are correct the harken Drum is 2.5 inches. I'm actually using a Hobie Style drum that uses and adjuster and only raises the attachment point about 1 inch. It also shortens the bridles by 1.5". You don't have to shorten the bridles (just take an extra 1" or so off of the forestay) but I did because I was replacing them anyway.

I guess the bottom line is to get the hardware first and then a new forestay, or order the kit from Murray's that already takes the measurements into account.

I read a few places that you don't wan't the forestay to go slack. The forces are much higher on the forestay than what the jib is supposed to take, that being said you can likely get away with it as long as your jib is in good shape there are a few factors of safety in there.

I didn't see anything wrong with the way the jib was attached. How else could you do it? That is the normal way a jib is attached on the older Nacras by the by.

D.

I didn't see anything wrong with the way the jib was attached. How else could you do it? That is the normal way a jib is attached on the older Nacras by the by.

On a furling drum? Not hardly, there is is nothing normal about that set up.
As stated before . . .

The shackle for the tack should be attached to the chain plate.

Not to the outside of the cast alloy tang.

His setup in the picture is craptastic. As Andrew stated, the whole thing can be done with ONE shackle.

Thank you for the replies.
MUMMP, (looking at the picture),are you saying the shackle that is attached to the tack should be attached where the Harken block is? Toss that block, & use one up near the top, where the swivel is. The lower shackle would secure the tack, then all you need is a halyard that runs through a small block at the top (& back down to the cleat shown in the picture)to raise/tension the jib.
I'm thinking if setup that way, you leave the forestay rigged, & by uncleating the purple line in the picture you could drop the jib, unzip it & remove it if you were leaving the boat sit for a week or so.
Andrew, or MUMMP, do you have a close up picture of your setup.
Please don't misconstrue my post as an argument against what you do. The only furler I have seen was on a Hobie Bravo, I really am ignorant of the details. If I do it I want it done right, & the simpler the better. The picture of the Nacra rig in Murrays is pretty bad.
I can't remember exactly what the adjuster on my forestay looks like, I THINK it might be a 10 holer, will look this Fri when I drop by the cottage.(Damn, I'm glad I took everything apart & stored it inside)
Plus I just got in from Santiago, Chile yesterday. The 32C sunshine was nice,8-) the being up 27 hours with 3 hours bunktime in the attic of the B777 not so nice. It rather reduces the processing power of my older 386 brain:lol:

edited by: Edchris177, Feb 02, 2010 - 08:15 AM

Please don't misconstrue my post as an argument against what you do.

HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME!~~~~ hahah just kidding. i dont see any close ups of my set up.. but here are a few others...

you can see the white line is my forestay (with white line attached) and the blue is my tack (jib) and halyard/downhaul (run 3 to 1 through the ring / jib (sisterclip / thimble)

I use a sisterclip system to remove the extra 25' of jib halyard/downhaul)

Here my friend is rigging his the same exact way...

edited by: andrewscott, Feb 02, 2010 - 09:51 AM

are you saying the shackle that is attached to the tack should be attached where the Harken block is?

Yes.

Toss that block, & use one up near the top, where the swivel is.

yes

The lower shackle would secure the tack, then all you need is a halyard that runs through a small block at the top (& back down to the cleat shown in the picture)to raise/tension the jib.

There is no need for either a small block at the top, nor cleat.. run the line through the thimble of the jib halyard and back down to the same tack shackle. you dont need a cleat on that rig.. simple secure the jib halyard / downhaul with a rolling hitch (or your knot of choice, that will come out after sailing)... the drawback is you can't adjust this on the fly... but very few can. The N20 has a system (and maybe others) that allow you to run the downhaul back to the beam for adjustment..

PS this might be rigged just for "show" but it looks to me he is using a single pin (with ringding 1/2 off) to hold his forestay to the chainplate adjuster.. i would recomend a shackle in that spot.. if that ringding slips through that thimble... you lose your mast 🙂

Thank you, that makes much more sense, you don't really need the blocks, I expect HM line would be plenty slippery thru that ring. I was wondering what you did with all that line on a 3:1, sister clip makes sense.
That would save a few $$, as you only need the the roller, swivel,ring,new forestay, & some line.

What is the advantage to using the Harken swivel ($135) as opposed to the Ronstan eye/jaw ($71)shown here:

http://www.murrays.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=MS&Product_Code=21-078B&Category_Code=

other than you would need a fork end at one spot of your rigging?

What is the advantage to using the Harken swivel ($135) as opposed to the Ronstan eye/jaw ($71)shown here:

The difference makes no sense but is true (as far as i can tell)
even though the ronstan is rated at 300% stronger, i have seen them fail, and NEVER the harken. I think this is due to the fact the ronstan is plastic lined and doesnt handle heat/sand. my friend demasted 2x while furling (or unfurling) with a ronstan on his mystere. both times his top furler wouldnt turn and caused his pigtail to twist and break...

PS the ronstan bottoms are also plastic parts (or delron or similar) and when they wear down.. they are done (unless you fabricate some solution) the Haken drum can be taken apart and all the delron (or torlon) bearings replaced. I did mine a month ago 🙂 and upgraded to the torlin bearings

andrewscott wrote:
The difference makes no sense but is true (as far as i can tell)
even though the ronstan is rated at 300% stronger, i have seen them fail, and NEVER the harken. I think this is due to the fact the ronstan is plastic lined and doesnt handle heat/sand. my friend demasted 2x while furling (or unfurling) with a ronstan on his mystere. both times his top furler wouldnt turn and caused his pigtail to twist and break...

PS the ronstan bottoms are also plastic parts (or delron or similar) and when they wear down.. they are done (unless you fabricate some solution) the Haken drum can be taken apart and all the delron (or torlon) bearings replaced. I did mine a month ago 🙂 and upgraded to the torlin bearings

Very good to know.

The new harken and the older hobie style have the drum under the bridles. Out of the way and easier to use. There is one for sale here in the classifieds.

Boy, some things are hard to explain in writing. I'll have to add "How to rig a jib furler on a non-furling beachcat" to the list of help pages I'd like to have.

Anyone who can do technical drawings please contact me, I think it in both this case and "how to rig a spin snuffer" a good labeled drawing would be better.

"A drawing is worth a thousand pictures" sometimes)

Anyone who can do technical drawings please contact me,

Hows this?

edited by: andrewscott, Feb 02, 2010 - 12:47 PM

MUMMP, (looking at the picture),are you saying the shackle that is attached to the tack should be attached where the Harken block is? Toss that block, & use one up near the top, where the swivel is. The lower shackle would secure the tack, then all you need is a halyard that runs through a small block at the top (& back down to the cleat shown in the picture)to raise/tension the jib.
I'm thinking if setup that way, you leave the forestay rigged, & by uncleating the purple line in the picture you could drop the jib, unzip it & remove it if you were leaving the boat sit for a week or so.

Yep, that pretty much covers it. You currently should have a wire jib halyard with a wire turning block at the top of your forestay. Nothing changes, you still use your existing halyard.

Here is a simple way to rig. The end of the wire halyard has a thimble on it. You usually attach your pigtail to that. Some people use sister clips, I find them a waste as they are not needed (something else to loose.) Anyway, when you pull up the jib you will want a short piece of small quality line 1/8" or so. This will act to hold up the jib and function as downhaul.

On to the furling drum. On top of the furling drum attached a 7 hole or 10 hole adjuster chain plate. Your forestay will attach to the chain plate with a clevis pin. Attach the jib tack to the chainplate between the clevis pin and the furling drum with a 1/4" shackle.

Back to the short halyard pigtail. It is tied off to the thimble on the end of your wire halyard. Take the end of the pigtail, run it through the round part of the 1/4" shackle (that is attached to the jib tack), run it back up to the wire halyard thimble, then back down to the chainplate and tie it off with the tension you want. This gives you 3:1 downhaul, it is clean, it is simple, and the whole unit will "furl" very nicely. No turning blocks, no jam cleats, no c.r.a.p., just simple. There are copious ways to tie it off the line, what ever works for you. . .
http://www.thebeachcats.com/index.php?module=pictures&g2_itemId=18380&g2_imageViewsIndex=1

edited by: mummp, Feb 02, 2010 - 12:32 PM

Thanks. I went through your album this afternoon, looking for pictures that showed a furling system. I have the picture you posted saved to my MISC CAT C.RAP folder. By expanding that one, & several others I have been able to answer quite few questions. Pictures that are saved as multi-megabit files are especially useful for this.

In your picture, I take it the black line at the very luff is the forestay, & the blue line that passes twice through the grommet is the halyard/downhaul?
The white line from the drum towars the lower left is the furling line, what are the thin lines that appear just above the drum, just retaining wire for the clevis pins?

that does seem the elegant, & cheapest way to rig it. If you have a good picture of the top end, that would also be greatly appreciated. I THINK I understand what you have described, I'm just conditioned in my business to never go with what you THINK might work!:-D

edited by: Edchris177, Feb 02, 2010 - 06:39 PM

Damon, I'll take pictures, write it up & post the project,with credits where due. Probable won't happen til spring.
Tek nik cal dro ings? Not me, I was hukt on foniks, wurkd 4me, I gratu8ed!

P.S. In my humble opinion we shouldn't have to edit C.R.A.P.:lol: It fits better than "feces file"

edited by: Edchris177, Feb 02, 2010 - 06:45 PM

In your picture, I take it the black line at the very luff is the forestay, & the blue line that passes twice through the grommet is the halyard/downhaul?
The white line from the drum towars the lower left is the furling line, what are the thin lines that appear just above the drum, just retaining wire for the clevis pins?

that does seem the elegant, & cheapest way to rig it. If you have a good picture of the top end, that would also be greatly appreciated.

Yes, you are correct on all the lines. One detail though, the blue line goes through the shackle, not the grommet. As for your comment, elegant and cheap, that it is. I'm not about cheap, just about what works good. Give me a few hours and I will get the picture of the upper swivel. It's been a craptastic day here. I second the censorship on c.r.a.p., but I do value Damon's cause. What about it Damon?

Edchris177 wrote: Thank you, that makes much more sense, you don't really need the blocks, I expect HM line would be plenty slippery thru that ring. I was wondering what you did with all that line on a 3:1, sister clip makes sense.
That would save a few $$, as you only need the the roller, swivel,ring,new forestay, & some line.

What is the advantage to using the Harken swivel ($135) as opposed to the Ronstan eye/jaw ($71)shown here:

http://www.murrays.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=MS&Product_Code=21-078B&Category_Code=

other than you would need a fork end at one spot of your rigging?

I am pretty sure this is the same Harken hardware sold at murrays http://www.murrays.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=C-MO-RF&Store_Code=MS in a kit with both pieces for a lot less at http://www.mauriprosailing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=HAR434&Category_Code=SMALLBOATFUR
It's even less I think than the used pair for sale in the classifieds here. http://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/showcat.php?cat=4

On further inspection that one may not be the High Load one but here is the high load for not much more at http://www.pyacht.com/harken-furling-sb.htm

edited by: Quarath, Feb 02, 2010 - 07:43 PM

Yeah thanks Quarath. I found another place also that has them brand new for $20 more than the used ones on sale.

Another question for MUMMP. I had read somwhere during this research that you can run out of room, due the large jib. What is the reason for using a 10 hole chainplate? It looks like you have 5-6 holes below the jib.
Is there anything to be gained by using a really short one, or do you need the length because a higher jib means easier tacking (less likely to hang up on beam), more adjustment room if/when things stretch, all/none of the above.
Thanks in advance for the extra pics when they come, I have quite a few from various boats saved in a folder. As stated they make a great resource for doing research when you don't have a boat in front of you & have never had the one you own rigged! I have several from your gallery, Airbornes, Andrews, along with others. It is not as good as hands on, but I have learned a great deal just following discussions, along with looking at blowups of high res pictures.
On a lighter note:

You think you have lived to be 80 and know who you are, then along comes someone and blows it all to pieces!

An old Marine Pilot sat down at the Starbucks, still wearing his old USMC flight suit and leather jacket and ordered a cup of coffee.

As he sat sipping his coffee, a young woman sat down next to him. She turned to the pilot and asked, 'Are you a real pilot?'

He replied, 'Well, I've spent my whole life flying planes, first Stearmans, then the early Grummans... flew a Wildcat and Corsair in WWII, and later in the Korean conflict, Banshees and Cougars. I've taught more than 260 people to fly and given rides to hundreds, so I guess I am a pilot, and you, what are you?

She said, 'I'm a l.e.s.bian. I spend my whole day thinking about naked women.. As soon as I get up in the morning, I think about naked women. When I shower, I think about naked women. When I watch TV, I think about naked women. It seems everything makes me think of naked women.'

The two sat sipping in silence.

A little while later, a young man sat down on the other side of the old pilot and asked: "are you a real pilot?"

He replied, 'I always thought I was, but I just found out I'm a l.e.s.bian.'

edited by: Edchris177, Feb 02, 2010 - 09:05 PM

Another question for MUMMP. I had read somwhere during this research that you can run out of room, due the large jib. What is the reason for using a 10 hole chainplate? It looks like you have 5-6 holes below the jib.
Is there anything to be gained by using a really short one, or do you need the length because a higher jib means easier tacking (less likely to hang up on beam), more adjustment room if/when things stretch, all/none of the above.

That is a really old picture so don't get caught up in the fine tuning of the moment. I now put the shackle on the hole closest to the furling drum. That is the sweet spot for the way I have the rig tuned. The purpose of the 10 hole adjuster is to give you a range of tuning, including rig tension and mast rake. There is nothing to be gained by using a short one. On the N20 I use 2 10 hole adjusters. We tune with quite a bit of mast rake and you need the 2 adjusters to reach the forestay. Back to your comment, the jib being higher does not make it easier to tack and has no effect of hanging up.

Can you run out of room? Yes you can, but usually something is improperly rigged. Don't be afraid to rake the mast back.

I can't find a picture but here's the skinny. From the forestay up is the swivel, on top of the swivel I use a part #56-9649 mast tang plate (2" hole to hole). It is a SS plate with two holes in it, one hole is round and the other is oblong or oval. This allow it to fit over the 5/16" rigging shackle, which is between the two shrouds. Again, very clean setup, and prevents alot of problems when trying to piece together a bunch of odd ball parts.

BTW Philip, i apologize for answer question(s) directed to you...

edited by: andrewscott, Feb 03, 2010 - 10:22 AM

All is good Andrew, I'll chime in only if you give stupid advise, unless of course, it is deserved. 🙂

I'll chime in only if you give stupid advise,

hmmmmm in reviewing my older posts, often you chime in afterwords.... hmmmmmmmmm 🙂