Sailing downwind on Nacra 5.0

DPN (Portsmouth #) for H-16 is 76 and & for 5.0 it is 77, ie Hobie faster (after many years of record keeping). PN in 8-10 mph wind (beaufont 2-3) is almost identical meaning you have to do every thing right to beat them. Do you have a bridle fly to follow the shifts? Was your weight forward? Figure out a way to get that jib lead outboard---on a Prindle, I just loop leads over end of main beam if no barber hauler & watch jib telltales, ie sheet in loosely. Pete

hobie 16's are great down wind... well sailed, they will smoke most other boats in the same size range ....

It's pretty important not to judge yourself against other brand/model boats... not apples to oranges

also all you moving around (switching skippers) is really rough on speed.

Did anybody notice poor downwind performance on this type of boomless boat?

windadict wrote: Yesterday bunch of Hobie 16’s smoked us on downwind leg of local regatta. 😡 3 races in 8-10 mph wind and 3 butts whooping

Like MN3 said, well sailed Hobie 16's are killers downwind. The best crews are at minimum weight (290 total) and have developed techniques that allow them to sail nearly dead downwind in that wind speed. Don't be suckered into following them downwind, your boat can't go as deep and you will blanket your jib.

Figure out the best downwind angle for your boat and go for speed. Use a bridle fly and cassette tape ribbons to "see" that you are sailing downwind at no deeper than 90 degrees to the apparent wind. Experiment to see if you can go a little deeper or if you gain a lot of speed heating it up.

A GPS is good to figure this out, have your crew call the speed as you try different settings and wind angles to see how they affect boat speed.

Even if you have been a Rock Star on a different boat you will probably continue to get smoked for a while, it's what happens, as you learn the boat the gap should narrow and then execution and strategy can determine the winner.

Forgot to ask the most obvious question about downwind light air performance. What was your total crew weight? How much was the 5.0 designed to race with?

MN3 wrote:
...also all you moving around (switching skippers) is really rough on speed.

We switched between races. We were very patient with every adjustment or change we made but it was hard to watch somebody from 50 yards behind you passing you with no effort whatsoever.
First race we went for speed, second - straight down, and third race we went on reach with me laying on leeward hull but with little wind it still wasn't enough.

DamonLinkous wrote: Forgot to ask the most obvious question about downwind light air performance. What was your total crew weight? How much was the 5.0 designed to race with?

Our total weight was about 350lbs (we didn't take any beer with us). I am not sure what is the optimal racing weight for nacra 5.0 but crew on those Hobies, which past us were not much less from us.

you sound like your doing the right things to me

with light air ... for me, it's a game of weight placement, knowing your boat inside and out and finesse with the tel tales and being light on the helm

new sails and perfectly faired foils and hulls will make a big difference too (but i never have all those things at the same time)

We switched between races. We were very patient with every adjustment or change we made but it was hard to watch somebody from 50 yards behind you passing you with no effort whatsoever.
First race we went for speed, second - straight down, and third race we went on reach with me laying on leeward hull but with little wind it still wasn't enough.

Having sailed these skeg hulled NACRAS for 20+ years I can tell you this ....if you have a pre '86 solid fiberglass boat with a crew that heavy in light air you're basically screwed on the downwind leg. I'll bet your jib does not have a traveller track to adjust the jib/sail slot. Most 5.0's of that era have an eyestrap for the jib cleat and that's it. However, if the winds are 15+ after clearing "A" mark let the mainsheet traveller out 6-12" fall off from direct downwind and sheet in until telltales are flowing back....crew should be watching for a clear shot at the gate on a reach. When that point is reached, tack, traveller in, block to block on the sheet, out on the wire and GO! Don't try to mimic what the 16's do...it's hours and hours on the water. When you get into your car to go to work you don't think about every detail about motor vehicle operation....it's a matter of reflex. With that 5.0, the heavier the wind the better your advantage.

Is there a way to have a jib more effective on this boat?

nacraman57 wrote: ....if you have a pre '86 solid fiberglass boat with a crew that heavy in light air you're basically screwed on the downwind leg. I'll bet your jib does not have a traveller track to adjust the jib/sail slot. Most 5.0's of that era have an eyestrap for the jib cleat and that's it. .

It's 1991 vintage and doesn't have jib traverer. Like you said - simple eye strap with no adjustments. Jib cleats are on inside of the hulls, 10" behind side stays.

I used to have a 5.7 and now have a 5.0. I'm still figuring out the 5.0. I cant say that I completely figured out the 5.7, especially with Dacron sails. I replaced the Dacron sails with square top Mylar as soon as I could on the 5.7.
However, on the 5.0, I am inclined, at least for now, to stick to the Dacron and learn how to sail them.
The 5.0 was built as more of a recreational/beginner boat than say, the 5.2/5.5/etc. Set up more for ease of sailing. Its pretty stripped down.
Every one of the extra lines and gismos that you see on an F-18 gives the boat the potential to go faster or produce better VMG. The 5.0 doesn't have any of them. I don't know what the H-16 have on them. Start with rotation and barberhaulers, or jib block adjustable tracks.
What I do know, is that all of these boats are very sensitive to weight and weight placement. Especially the newer hull designs, ie. the 5.0(in relation to the the H16).
So, the more important thing in relation to weight is, what is your crew weight in relation to theirs. And where is it placed. The older nacras like to have their bows deep in the water, transoms out.
Down-haul is pretty much set and forget. But if you are getting a whooping, reach up and release some down-haul when going down wind.
Depending on what you want to accomplish with the boat, you can add an endless amount of bling that will give you a bit more speed potential. But you sacrifice simplicity and ease of setup.

I just threw a boom on my 5.0 to gain better control of the shape of the main, and to give me an easier way to add mast rotation. I dont have all of the bugs worked out yet, but I do know that in very low winds, mast over rotation is HUGE. Upwind and down wind!
Also, you may need to give your battens a bit of a taper to give better sail shape.

As an example of the effect of mast rotation, A friend and I were sailing in under 5mph of wind. Me on my inter 20, him, on his Bimar 18HT. We were single handing and just trying to get every bit of speed out of our boats with weight distribution, sail shape, etc. we were dead even. Then I over rotated the mast. He didnt have rotation on his 18HT. I quickly doubled his speed and , as not to be a D!@k, passed him to his lee. Then tacked, over him, sailed back down his windward, and jibed again and sailed back up and passed him on his lee again. Sailed circles around him. The only change I made was the mast over rotation. Huge in light winds and down wind. Sorry Jim. I hope the rotation that you are currently adding works.
Hope this helps. If you figure it out, let me know.
Like nacraman 57 says, dont stay with the Hobies, race your own race, not theirs.

I just threw a boom on my 5.0 to gain better control of the shape of the main, and to give me an easier way to add mast rotation.

I'm not sure a boom is an "easier" way to add mast rotation. I thought the boomed Nacras used the hardware to REDUCE rotation.
The boomless boats (5.7 & 5.0) muse the hardware to INDUCE rotation.
The standard rotation setup for the 5.7 & 5.0 is about as simple as it can get. You have a 2:1 purchase, & can easily crank the mast around for downwind. Just don't forget to undo it as your first step in higher winds, or you risk breaking the mast.
This photo was the original setup & does not have the lines rigged properly. It should be a continuous line, dead ended at one of the eyestraps, through the end of the rotator wishbone- back through fairlead- through cleat- across tramp to other side-through cleat-fairlead-out to wishbone end-back to eye strap & dead end.

Here we go again, positive rotater vs limiter, boomless vs boom.

azcat wrote: ... Start with rotation and barberhaulers, or jib block adjustable tracks.
... I dont have all of the bugs worked out yet, but I do know that in very low winds, mast over rotation is HUGE. Upwind and down wind!

Since the jib clew is far behind front cross beam, I don't think that track would work. Nacra 5.2 uses tracks that are run along the hulls but they only allow minimal jib adjustments that are insignificant in downwind sailing. Barberhaulers may work better but I need to look at the jib/hulls geometry to see if it is worth doing it.

Over-rotation -yes, I have noticed that and was planning on starting new thread on that issue. In low or high winds the mast is paraller to the cross beam affecting wind flow over the main sail. I added extra tension on stays but that didn't fix it. I guess my next step is what edchris did and use his setup to limit the rotation. Any other suggestions?

Edchris177 wrote:
This photo was the original setup & does not have the lines rigged properly. It should be a continuous line, dead ended at one of the eyestraps, through the end of the rotator wishbone- back through fairlead- through cleat- across tramp to other side-through cleat-fairlead-out to wishbone end-back to eye strap & dead end.

Edchris, Do you have pictures of your new setup?

Let me know if you guys have some extra parts for this setup, I need them.

Here we go again, positive rotater vs limiter, boomless vs boom.

HaHa! I really didn't mean to open that can of worms.I think it was you that originally suggested the correct way to rig the line on mine. I was just thinking he sails a boomless rig, why complicate it from the factory setup?

Barberhaulers may work better but I need to look at the jib/hulls geometry to see if it is worth doing it.

I think Andrew,(MN3) removed his, as he came to the conclusion they were not worth the extra setup. My '88 5.0 has just the eyestraps, the 5.7 has the tracks. I think Nacra says pull the cars to the rear in big wind,(chokes the slot), & forward in light.

I guess my next step is what edchris did and use his setup to limit the rotation.

Adam, on the boomless boats they are there to INDUCE rotation. Have a look at the final pages of the NAcra manual, (Damon has it here under Technical if you don't already have it).
You mast should freely rotate to where it should be most of the time. It naturally wants to put the leading edge into the wind, the most streamlined position. When going deep downwind, the wind will be from behind you. I think the idea is to rotate the mast further around, to obtain a smoother flow.

Edchris, Do you have pictures of your new setup?

That photo is how it is, except run a single line as described. You also need a small bungee, or line, from the end of the wishbone up to an eyestrap on the mast. Otherwise the wishbone tends to fall down. If you want to try it, I have a spare rotator, & I think I have a couple of the curved mounts/cam/fairleads that you see in the photo of my 5.7. The rotator is the one pictured here.

Here is a 6.0 using it. Note he does not have the lines run in this photo, it rigs the same as I described above.

Edited by Edchris177 on Jul 24, 2013 - 11:35 PM.

Adam,
Here is a picture with the factory harken hardware.

Adam,

I just went back and read this entire thread, and focused on what your real issues are. Nacraman57 and azcat give you some very good advice based on years of experience, and after spending many years racing in mixed fleets I agree. Concentrate on boat handling and trim. Like said before, race your own race, you will need to sail a hotter angle downwind. Concentrate on keeping you boat moving and sailing your own VMG. Tricking out the boat with a bunch of jib leads modifications isn't real going to help.

It's all about the nut on the tiller.

not that they weren't worth it - I removed mine because my boat looks like someone threw up lines everywhere and i need to reduce lines (i may go with lines inside my front beam for this when i referb them this fall)

I loved and miss my barber haulers and end up holding the jib in position by hand when i can.

I think Andrew,(MN3) removed his, as he came to the conclusion they were not worth the extra setup. My '88 5.0 has just the eyestraps, the 5.7 has the tracks. I think Nacra says pull the cars to the rear in big wind,(chokes the slot), & forward in light.

Is everybody sick of this thread yet? Philip, thanks for the positive reinforcement of my message......a boom, mast rotator and/or a barberhauler on a NACRA5.0...are you kidding me? Total waste of money and effort! I removed the mast rotator from my 5,7 because for what the boat was designed , I could not feel any advantage. Just more crap getting in the way. An example of what I'm rambling on about....last Friday my local fleet had our annual Longshot race on our lake. LeMans style start...10.5 mi. up the lake, round the mark 10.5 mi. back. Out of a dozen or so boats I placed fourth. Why? Boat #1 was a new "Olympic" carbon NACRA F17 with a spi that felt like it was made out of tissue paper. Boat #2 was a spied F16 VIPER that weighed 250 lbs.! (That's 75lbs less than a Hobie 16!) Boat #3 was a Hobie 20 skippered by our Division 7 champ. The rest were Hobie 16's. Here I am sitting on a 26 year old, 350lb skeg boat with 300+lbs of skipper and crew.....and yet we did quite well. Why? I know that lake like the back of my hand. I know my rig and what it can do. I know that a SW wind coming off the bluffs will push me to the middle of the lake on a close reach etc, etc. Adam, the thing is...that 5.0 you have is a great boat just the way the designers intended. Don't get caught up in the fantasy that if I "just change this" or if I just "spend that" it will vastly improve the perfomance of your rig. I recently picked up an '06 Hobie Wave to get the grandkids started sailing ....and thought, wouldn't it be cool to do what Rick White did and get a gin pole, roller furler and mount a screecher with the cleats tied to the shroud chainplates and blow Hobie 16's out of the water all day long?? But then on second thought.....wouldn't that take the JOY out of it????

I may agree that barberhauler may be little over kill for the little problem I have when sailing downwind but when I see the mast over rotated to almost perpendicular position in relation to the sail in variuos wind conditions then I think this is not right and need to be corrected. Therefore I am looking for rotation limiter to prevent mast from bending.

Edchris177 wrote:
Adam, on the boomless boats they are there to INDUCE rotation. Have a look at the final pages of the NAcra manual, (Damon has it here under Technical if you don't already have it).
You mast should freely rotate to where it should be most of the time. It naturally wants to put the leading edge into the wind, the most streamlined position. When going deep downwind, the wind will be from behind you. I think the idea is to rotate the mast further around, to obtain a smoother flow.

If they induce mast rotaion on boomless boat, what in this case limits or prevents over rotation? 😕

windadict wrote: If they induce mast rotaion on boomless boat, what in this case limits or prevents over rotation? 😕

Sheet tension. Boomless boats love sheet tension. Travel center sheet hard upwind.
Downwind travel to the hiking strap and sheet hard enough that the main is off the shroud.
Use some tape on the bridle wires and set the apparent wind to 90 degrees and get the jib and main working together, then never stall the leeward tail on the jib.

Forget the rotator, you don't have one. The harder you sheet the less the mast rotates. Need even less rotation, bring your clew a hole forward, assuming you don't have a clew traveler on your main, but this also flattens the sail and gives you less power. Minimum crew weight on a 5.0/500 is 260lbs so at your crew weight, your sailing heavy and have less sail area than a H16. The 5.0 has always been known as a heavy air boat, when the wind is "blowin dogs off chains" the 5.0 shines.

As far as the boats you are racing against, who has the most time racing? The new guy rarely wins.

Did I mention sheet tension? Boomless boats love sheet tension.

windadict wrote: . . . then I think this is not right and need to be corrected.

You are over thinking this. Don't blame one ass whippin' by an H16 in light air at a local fun race on the rig. Do like Ron says, sheet in and spend some time on the water.

Forget the rotator, you don't have one.

As Ron said don't worry about it, they were optional on the boomless rigs, standard I believe on the 5.5 & 18 Sq. I think there is a sentence in the manual about maybe getting one if you were racing.
Think about the other things he said, move the "S" hook forward in the clew for less rotation. In essence you are stretching the sail towards the stern. If the sail were tough enough, & you sheeted hard enough you could stretch it to a straight line. The less tension, the more the wind force wants to curve the sail. The sail is attached via the track, so the more it bends, the more the mast rotates.
I don't race, so I rarely see the difference 1mph makes over a 20 mile course, I only bother using my rotator on deep downwinds & really light flaky air, when the mast has a tendency to flop around & shake what little air you have out of the sail.
As said, the 5.0 is a ton of fun when the wind picks up. I regularly solo both boats over 21 GPS when the wind was blowing.
If I had a fleet around here to race with, I think I'd do it, & get whupped...at least in the beginning. You have to believe you are as smart as the other guys, & can learn what they know, but remember, they didn't learn how to win in one race, or one season.
It's hard to see the rotator in Philips photo, but I'm pretty sure it is the same one in my pile of parts photo. If you want to try it & prove to yourself what it will do, I will mail you the parts you need,(rotator arm & 2 fairlead/cleats), use them for the season & then decide. The only caveat is you have to drill a 5/16" hole through the mast to accomodate the through bolt. The mast base goes up far enough the hole goes through that as well. It's aluminum, easy drill, & easy to fill & seal if you decide you don't need it. Remember, if you turtle the boat, that hole is underwater. Send me a PM if you want to try it.

One factor for downwind performance is total sail area:

H16 208.5 sq ft
N500 190.2 sq ft

This is 10% advantage H16 over N500.

I am not sure about N5.0, but I would exact the sail area to be close to N500.

Guys, point well taken. Forget the rotation limiter, forget the ass whooping. The boat is as good as it gets and is time to have fun on the water not with screwing things up. Thank you 😀

jackb wrote: One factor for downwind performance is total sail area:

H16 208.5 sq ft
N500 190.2 sq ft

This is 10% advantage H16 over N500.

I am not sure about N5.0, but I would exact the sail area to be close to N500.

Nacra 5.0 sails area is 201 sq ft

According to the Hobie USA site, the total sail area for the H16 is 218 sq ft. A lot of that area is in the jib, which is the shiznit downwind. Further, min.crew weight for the N5.0 is 20 lb. less so being over probably affects the N5.0 more.

I was very surprised to see that the D-PN for the N5.0 is as low as it is.

i upgraded to a mystere 5.5 because i couldn't catch my friend's 16 year old on his h16. (i had a h18)

get them going wing to wing and ... bye bye

I was very surprised to see that the D-PN for the N5.0 is as low as it is.

Jerome, I don't think the PN tells the entire story,the N5.0 is no slouch. It is an older design, & the skeg hulls means it's no lightweight, but when the wind gets honking, & the seas build, those big hulls are your friends.
We commonly run with a newer H17, a boat with a slightly lower PN than either the H16 or the N5.0. He has new sails, & when sailed solo, he beats our N5.0, & I have to work to keep up with the older 5.7.
Once the water gets rough things change dramatically. It is easy to hit 21mph on the 5.7, you have to work harder to get the 5.0 over 20, but you do it whether an offshore wind,(smooth water), or onshore,(big swell and/or steep faces). The rough water seems to really hurt the H17.
We also commonly sail with a duo of English Gentlemen, running an H16 & Dart 18. They competitively raced across the pond for 40 years, but had never helmed a Nacra. I gave them our boats one day in 20+ winds & stiff seas. They were astounded at how hard you could drive them,double trapped, the third sitting on the hull, full on into the steep faces,without eating it, while maintaining speed. The Dart owner knew his boat could handle the seas, but said he could never go as fast as they whipped the 5.7 that day.

Edited by Edchris177 on Jul 30, 2013 - 05:54 PM.

Edchris177 wrote:
Jerome, I don't think the PN tells the entire story,....

Portsmouth Numbers rarely do!

I wasn''t trying to express any judgement against the N5.0, just surprised that the PNs rate it so low (fast). There are always lots of factors invlolved, and my experience racing with N5.0s is limited.

I remember the first time I saw a N5.0....thought it was the coolest design in that length range. Surprisingly, it's rated faster than the H16 at lower wind speeds and slower at higher wind speeds. My experience racing against them has probably been all in a lighter breeze, and I don't remember having any trouble beating them. I would not doubt that they shine in the heavier stuff with those hulls and sail plan.

But back to the original topic, I suspect that the N5.0 jib is small relative to the H16, and that's a huge factor in downwind sailing.