OK, the current line is a static line (non bungee) 22ft long 10mm line that is moldy and needs replaced. It's tied at both ends to the back xcrossbar, goes forward on both sides underneath of the hull through blocks at each front corner, then to center of the tramp and then the excess is twisted and woven between the center tramp heading aft. At the end of the "loop" there is another block which rests at about mid tramp. I presume this block is for another line which retrieves the righting line after use. Now imagine standing on waterside hull as boat is on its side. Simply pull down and the line escapes the tramp and the loop is extended to full length. Used in this fashion, it appears the fulcum would be the underneath of both front and back xbeams on the high hull.
Shouldn't a righting line be over the hull not drawn from corners of the crossbars from underneath the hull? Plus how would one know if this line is too long or too short to provide enough pulling power unless you were in the water with the boat on its side? Leaning back in the loop tugging at both ends etc...
Now I've looked at other righting systems...using bungee. How can a stretchy line gain enough leverage that this static system might have been used instead, the woven part, to take up slack, instead of using bungee.
(I realize there are many techniques for individual preferences, but if this owner figured out something that is just as effective, why not just replace the line as it was used previously?) I have a line that I could use. I don't have 22' of bungee! Cost savings...
I'm thinking just replace the line, then take a minimal righting line along too that is attached to the dolphin striker as backup in case the "loop" underneath isn't the right length or is not effective. Sorry about the long wind, but wanted to get you as much info as possible. I'm 6' 200lb and only go out when it's windy so I want to be ready for a swim on my first ride.
Any suggestions? (Yes, I'll have another crew member to help with any righting)
Sounds like what you have on your boat is an attempt at the "Hawaiian" righting system, but no bungee to actually retract the righting line. The idea with all of these self-retracting systems is that you pull on the righting line until the line itself supports you, not the bungee cord. The problem is that when you're pulling on the line, you end up fighting the bungee cord and that makes things difficult.
Your question about whether the line should go under or over the hull is one that has been asked for decades. It's really a simple question, however. The boat doesn't "care" whether the line goes over or under the hull. All the boat cares about is where your center of gravity is located - the farther out the better. This is what determines whether or not you right the boat. The placement of the line affects how comfortable the line is for YOU to hold onto, with the objective being to get your body laid out as horizontal as possible while still being out of the water. So having the line thrown over the hull makes it easier to hold onto.
Most experienced sailors seem to gravitate back to the simplest righting system which is just a line tied to the dolphin striker and thrown over the upper hull. Unless you capsize a lot, this system seems to work the best and provide the most ease and versatility. It also allows you to take the line and wrap it around your harness hook so you take the load off your arms when righting the boat.
Another thing to keep in mind, if you're sailing the 18 solo at 200lbs, it is likely that you're not going to have enough weight to get the boat up after capsize without assistance.
sm
Steve M.
Dogboy wrote: .....
Most experienced sailors seem to gravitate back to the simplest righting system which is just a line tied to the dolphin striker and thrown over the upper hull. .....
Another thing to keep in mind, if you're sailing the 18 solo at 200lbs, it is likely that you're not going to have enough weight to get the boat up after capsize without assistance.
sm
I agree with both these points. I've rigged about every variation of retractable righting systems known and have gone back to a thick cheap light rope tied to the dolphin striker and stuffed in a tramp pocket. Thick rope is a lot easier to hold on to, just don't get something that will absorb water since it will add weight and get moldy.
Keep in mind that the reason retracting righting line systems were invented was to get sailing again faster when racing but for recreational sailing you can take your time.
____________
Damon Linkous
Also if 200lbs won't do it on a honking big rope tied to the dolphin, how big a canvass bag do I need carry when solo. 5 gals?
Besides, since I'm not racing, and have plenty of time to fool around, wouldn't tying a bowline up the mast and thrown across the hull provide more leverage than tied to the dolphin. I believe I saw an illustration demonstrating righting moment on the net somewhere showing more leverage with that rope positioning.
5 Galon bag "should" be good but it all depends on wind, waves, the boat facing the right direction ect. I agree with above posts.... I now right my Hobie 20 and Hobie 16 using a plain fat rope ( about 20' long ) tucked into a tramp bag as well. After a capsize, whip that joker over the top hull ( easer to hang on if over top hull ) and pour on the weight. Even on the 20 if others are nearby and someone swims over to me all it takes is the swimmer to swim up behind me and give a few tugs on the slack rope and the boats pop right up, id imagine 40lb of water in the bag would do the same. All of this assuming your mast is sealed and doesn't take on water!
Prob best advice is if you have any reservation about taking out a big heavy boat solo and there's a chance the wind is going to pick up and overpower you, think twice so you don't get stuck in a bad situation π
Tim
Edited by fxloop on Feb 06, 2015 - 08:27 PM.
After spending a few years on your boat you'll know where that fine line is!
I wish I had my iphone to take that picture of my newly painted Laser, Interlux Ft. Lauderdale Blue that we carried to the top of the jetty after the boom broke off and I was blown into the rocks. Fortunately someone on the beach came to my aid and we carried the stuff to the top of the jetty, for tow on the other side where the inlet was. Would have made a nice pic with the Bay Bridge in the background. Yes knowing the fine lines is about getting out there and doing it.... I'll look for the canvass bucket. Perhaps I'll have more questions about depowering, should I get overpowered on the HC.
18'+ Cats get powered up in a hurry with winds over 15MPH! I've been sailing on our lake locally with me and crew on my 20 and seen Damon's eyes open really wide 100 yards away ( sailing solo on his 18 ) when the wind hit the lake in front of an oncomming storm. My butt puckered for about 10 mins and I had about 400lb holding my boat down!! You DO have a furling jib right π Grab a righting bucket and 30' of fat rope and you're covered.
With two persons righting is easy. Be carreful not to loop the line over your hand if your partner is grabbing it from below...i almost did it but realised a few milliseconds before it happened.....still scares me to think about it
A righting bag has a marginal effect, it didn't work for me the only time i tried it. If you don't want to rely on technique and a minimum wind, use a righting pole. This one or a variation of can be very reliable
This one or a variation of can be very reliable
Not that this thread was to discuss righting techniques... I've seen this vid before and after seeing how far out the guy stands on the board I can see where a bag of water would have to be further out, not dropped directly below your shoulder. Doesn't this righting pole put a lot of stress on the inside of the dagger board well walls?
Also, in talking about righting, how about not letting the boat go over in the first place? what is the technique for getting the boat down so that you won't go over. Rudder? Sheet? crawling out on the upper dagger board etc.. How far is too far, that letting it out will have no effect. Or never fly a hull etc... π
I think the daggerboard well is strong enough. But in my case i found it easier to make a loop at the end of the pole, with a strap, and put it around the daggergoard. Just needed the strap and a couple rivets with washers. My pole is much longer (righting pole i mean...), so i dont need to stand on the end of it. I store it under the tramp but along the hulls, not across. Close to one hull so you dont hurt your feet if you walk over it.
Regarding technique to avoid capsizing, playing eith the mainsheet is the modt effective, dont cleat it when its rough. But you will capsize most likely, when you least exepect. When capsized the boat normally moved faster than you can swim, if you are two, one can be left behind and the other will have to right the boat by himself, if he can't and eind is blowing off shore, both will need a rescue. (Based on a true story!)
Righting system is a safety device, don't underestimate it
Sorry for the typos
Here is my system, i cut the pole not far from the rope attachment, after testing on the water on a calm morning. The righting line attached at the dolphin striker is still necessary, or makes it easier.
http://youtu.be/DKuSSZ7JxBA
Tieing the righting line high on the mast will make absolutely no difference. As I said before, the boat only "cares" about the location of your center of gravity. All that matters is how much you weigh and how far you can get your weight out away from the bottom hull. Where the righting line is tied makes no difference at all with respect to getting the boat to come up.
Regarding carryiing a 5 gallon water bag, i really doubt that is going to do the trick. A H18 needs close to 300lb of crew weight to be righted reliably in all conditions. 5 gallons of water works out to roughly 40lbs. Not gonna cut it for a 200lb solo sailor.
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Steve M.
Guess that leaves the righting pole, or 9' sculling oar... oh, OK so I use the sculling oar to get out the inlet to the where the wind is, put the sail up, then when I tip over I use the pole/oar to right the boat. I got it, thanks.
Whatever system you go with, I suggest you figure it out and make sure it works consistently well for you in a controlled setting before you find yourself in a situation where you actually NEED it. Trying to MacGyver a righting system out of a piece of line and an oar while your boat is on it's side or turtled out in open water has Coast Guard rescue written all over it.
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Steve M.
Whatever system you go with, I suggest you figure it out and make sure it works consistently well for you in a controlled setting before you find yourself in a situation where you actually NEED it. Trying to MacGyver a righting system out of a piece of line and an oar while your boat is on it's side or turtled out in open water has Coast Guard rescue written all over it.
There's a pond inside the inlet, where the coast guard keep their boats, as a place to practice/rig righting techniques. Or can be done on the grass to get the lines the right length. Makes little sense to experiment with a safety system in open water, unless of course you have a motor boat, dinghy along side to aid with any rescue. Thanks for you help.
Also, in talking about righting, how about not letting the boat go over in the first place
you can avoid ALL capsizes by sailing very slow and only in very light air
but i prefer to sail it like i stole it, know how to avoid capsize (while going upwind head up and sheet and travel the out) OR steer "down" when going downwind
and most importantly, practice capsizing a few times so you know how to right your boat
Power poles work but require extra fixed gear under the boat (i am not a big fan of all that)
bags work (most of the time) if you know how to use them
I have successfully solo righted my 5.5 with a single large murray's bag
I have also (in heavy air/wave conditions) been unable to right my 5.5 with a single large murray's bag and even a second bag and have had to wait for help... not fun
MN3
goodsailing wrote:
Besides, since I'm not racing, and have plenty of time to fool around, wouldn't tying a bowline up the mast and thrown across the hull provide more leverage than tied to the dolphin.
It wasn't crystal clear, but the post above did not mean to suggest tying the righting line to the dolphin striker and handling it directly from there underneath the boat. It's tied up near the mast base and deployed up over the tramp and over the top of the skyward hull. Mine on my Hobie 16 is actually tied to the front beam around the mast base to avoid any chance of bending the striker.
Edited by rattlenhum on Feb 10, 2015 - 12:30 PM.
Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
+1
did not mean to suggest tying the righting line to the dolphin striker and handling it directly from there underneath the boat.
i personally wrap my righting line knot around the mast base.. i would rather replace that 1 part (if it ever failed from righting) than all the parts in my DS system
MN3
you can avoid ALL capsizes by sailing very slow and only in very light air
I'll try that only once to ensure everything is set up right, and to get familiar with the boat. After that.. l only go out when it's windy. π
haha!
I used to hate and avoid light air (and low tide) days... but here in the gulf of mehico, we can have all weather conditions possible (excluding snow/ice) all in the same day ...
summer time means light winds until (and if) the seabreaze kicks in around 1 pm
I have found that light air sailing is very challenging and very rewarding now that i can sail (pretty) well in light air
goodsailing wrote:
you can avoid ALL capsizes by sailing very slow and only in very light air
I'll try that only once to ensure everything is set up right, and to get familiar with the boat. After that.. l only go out when it's windy. π
MN3
MN3 wrote:
I have found that light air sailing is very challenging and very rewarding now that i can sail (pretty) well in light air
Please share one or two key tips
For me, when there are still waves but little wind, it's more about stabilizing the mast and traveler to have some peace.. That's one of the few cases where I use the mast rotator and now I have a traveler set up that allows me to fix it at a given position. Other than that, I care more about how to make a decent pillow and find some shadow under the sails..
MN3 wrote: +1
did not mean to suggest tying the righting line to the dolphin striker and handling it directly from there underneath the boat.
i personally wrap my righting line knot around the mast base.. i would rather replace that 1 part (if it ever failed from righting) than all the parts in my DS system
My tramp has a groomet at the center of the front beam, almost touching it. So I wrap the line around the main beam, the DS acts as a stopper (and not the groomet). So the line may also be a towing line, if passed through the connection of both bridles and stay (in my case a hole at the center of the bow foil). Instead of storing the line in the tramp pocket, it goes around the bow foil and back to the mast base, tied with a quick knot.
This way I also avoid messing with the halyards inside the tramp pocket when I take the righting line
Andinista wrote: Please share one or two key tips
sure
1. if you have very light air .... don't tack, stay on that line until you absolutely HAVE to change tacks
2. keep weight near the mast (move capt & crew) - have your crew on the low side if possible (and sit still)
3. in air less than 4 knots - on my boat i use LOTS of downhaul and sheet the main very tight
MN3
I do exactly the opposite in 3.. what would be the logic? You also use the traveler centered?
Andinista wrote: I do exactly the opposite in 3.. what would be the logic? You also use the traveler centered?
it works
has something to do with the way the air flows off the sail in light air - i can't find the reference
MN3
MN3 wrote:
3. in air less than 4 knots - on my boat i use LOTS of downhaul and sheet the main very tight
No disrespect, but that isn't going to work on a H18. I've been racing them for A LOT of years and no way I would crank down super hard on mainsheet and downhaul in very light wind. You want to be very "tender" with the mainsheet tension in light air. You are walking a very fine line between sheeting in far enough to get the most power out of the available breeze and over-sheeting and killing everything. If you hook the upper section of the sail, you will kill all your power. There is no set and forget mode in the light stuff - you have to make constant micro-adjustments.
The best light wind tuning accessory on a Hobie 18, IMO, is two pairs of telltails placed about 1/3 of the way back in the second and third panels down from the top. Trim your sheet to keep those telltails flowing, and if you lose flow on the leeward side, ease the sheet an inch or two. It all comes down to very fine tuning. In very light wind, you may even want to turn off the ratchet on your main block for a better feel. There's a saying - when in doubt, let it out. You never want to lose flow on the leeward side of the sail, and over sheeting will do just that.
sm
Steve M.
I agree that sailing fast in slack wind takes as much skill as handling a boat in strong wind. But going slower in a sailboat than what you can paddle is really the pits! That's why Windfinder.com is bookmarked and used to schedule sailboat outings. π
No disrespect, but that isn't going to work on a H18
I sail mystere's - I have a 5.5 and a 6.0
and i meant main outhaul, not mainsheet
I asked on the "other forum" - got this:
check the bottom two paragraphs of page 1 here.
http://www.interlakesailing.org/myfiles/lightair.pdf
Key points seem to be not have too much camber/draft allowing premature separation and don't let the leach hook
From link:
While one might think that a very full sail would be necessary to give the boat the power it needs, in most cases a flatter sail will perform better. The simple theory is that a full, baggy sail requires more "wind bending"; that is, the wind has to curve around the sail more, which gives the airflow more of a chance to break up and become turbulent. A flatter shape allows the airflow to remain attached - so leave the outhaul fairly tight to help keep the lower section of the main flatter and the leech more open.
Another way to do this is to ease the Cunningham, allowing the draft to move aft slightly. In most conditions the main is trimmed so the upper batten is parallel to the boom when sighted from underneath. In light winds this is virtually impossible, due to the weight of the boom hanging on the leech of the main. It is not unusual for the main leech to hook badly, sometimes as much as 10 to 20 degrees to weather of the foot. Although this looks bad, it is frequently beneficial to have the mainsail shape a bit rounder in the after sections. This will induce slight weather helm, and help get optimum
pointing capability.
Edited by MN3 on Feb 12, 2015 - 03:05 PM.
MN3
But going slower in a sailboat than what you can paddle is really the pits!
paddling is the worst, and just slightly better than sitting still or being pushed by the tide and baking in the fl sun in the summer.
that doesn't mean i will rig with the intent of sailing in 3 knots of wind (unless i expect that to change later in the day), but as i originally stated, i am starting to enjoy light air sailing a lot more now that i can do it somewhat well
having a big spinnaker makes it a lot more fun too
MN3