Prindle 19 Assistance!

s there any trick i'm missing?

this is a tough ask. taking the main off while on the water? the only reliable solution to this is to get on anchor. this will keep your bows into the wind. problem is all the wave action - but nothing can be done about that

Can I cleat the halyard to the mast and go easy on the downhaul? That's how the main would be reefed I assume, so why not just stop short of the hook, and cleat off.

no - when on the hook aloft and the downhaul afoot - you have a 1:1
take it off the hook, let it roll over the sheeve aloft and you now have a 2:1 - doubling the stress on your mast
while reefed - you are reducing the force by reducing sail area (still 2:1 and not optimal).

The previous owner glassed over the adjustment bolts for reinforcement,.....is the only solution to buy new rudders and hope the new system works properly? There is a set of MX rudders available, but at $600 its 20% of the boat's cost and hard to justify.

Out of my area of expertise but can't you sand them out?

also - i paid $800 for new hobie18 casting, on my $400 hobie 14 years ago - $600 for a set doesn't seem to terrible

(i just purchase a $2k motor for my $600, 1956 alum boat)

I’m not a Prindle guy, but in general regarding beach cats, they really aren’t designed to raise and lower the main on the water. Yes, it can certainly be done, but on shore is really where the main is intended to be raised and lowered. The problem is that the boat really needs to point directly head to wind to hook and un-hook the main. Also, the mainsheet and downhaul need to be fully eased (as in disconnected). So it’s very difficult to achieve both of these things (head to wind and mainsail disconnected) simultaneously on the water without a motor. I would say your best bet would be to put the boat hove-to before attempting to lower the main. This will keep you “close” to the wind and stabilize the boat. Otherwise, you may want to invest in a halyard handle to make pulling the halyard a little easier. I would not recommend sailing without the halyard ring engaged in the hook.

sm

Edited by Dogboy on Aug 28, 2020 - 08:35 PM.

Thank you for the quick reply. Maybe I need to find a well placed sandbar. Lol.
I suppose I am being cheap on the rudder replacements....I can't imagine parting with the boat and its a necessary fix.
Thank you for the tips Dogboy,....ill definitely pick up a handle, might be a difference maker.

Maybe I need to find a well placed sandbar.

why are you not even considering getting on anchor?

getting on anchor should be the first thing you do when you capsized for the same reasons (or deploy a drift sock). Stop moving, point the bows into the wind, give you the ability to take your time and move around without fear of getting in more trouble.

Do you think a 5lb folding anchor would be enough? I have a 14lb danforth, from my other boat. I guess I have been trying to keep the boat as simple and clean as possible, and the thought of carrying an anchor never occurred to me. I have been used to monohulls where staying in irons was much easier, and more could be accomplished. I also have been under the impression that a mast rotated into the wind, with the sail let out would be the same as being pointed directly into the wind. Clearly not the case.

Do you think a 5lb folding anchor would be enough? I have a 14lb danforth, from my other boat. I guess I have been trying to keep the boat as simple and clean as possible, and the thought of carrying an anchor never occurred to me.

the correct anchor depends on the type of bottom it is being applied to
i am not a fan of folding anchors - i have yet to see them hold a catamaran in 15-20 knots

i sail in combination conditions, soft white sands, fields of seagrass, oysterbeds, and muck

i use a fortress 7 alum danforth
it weighs nothing, it works in all these conditions mostly well but it can be a challenge to get it to set in at times if i don't have a few feet of chain on it

I have used several cheap steel ones from walmart over the years ($15/ 5lbs or similar) - they work fine but i had a friend "in the biz" and gave me his employee discount - i own 2 🙂 although the second one came with my 6.0.
the weight savings is nice, the lack of rust is nice - ymmv

https://fortressanchors.com/product/fortress-anchor/

and don't get me wrong, carrying an anchor on a beach cat is a pita. they are big, sharp, pointy, and cats don't come with anchor storage.

I used to carry mine in a little duffle bag lashed to the deck by the beam (actually flight carry on bag) - that lasted a few season.

then i gave in and did what most of the others here do - stuffed it in the front tramp pocket - that works but leads to scratched beams and masts, ripped pockets over time

I now use a "front tramp net" to keep it off the deck - but i wouldn't ever sail without it even if it mean stuffing it in a pocket.

It is critical for me to right my 5.5 or 6.0, to park in a squal, to park on the lea of an island or beach, etc

Edited by MN3 on Aug 29, 2020 - 10:08 AM.

Sounds like a good idea MN3, Ill be making it a part of the kit moving forward.
You can see in the photos the glassed over rudders,...I am wondering if replacing the springs and catch mechanism will make a difference since it was done only a few years ago. Cheaper solution to try anyway.

Edited by theblackpearl on Aug 29, 2020 - 12:39 PM.

I've lowered my main once under way on the P19 and that was an experiment while using a 12 lb Cruise n Carry outboard. Even THAT was a pain in the a**. Are you sure you are not getting off the hook, or just not able to get enough rotation? One issue is you can unhook easier with more rotation, but with more rotation it's harder to pull the sail down. What worked for me that day on the water was to leave the downhaul rigged. I eased the downhaul enough to leave slack, hauled in on the halyard, rotated the mast 90 deg to port, then pulled on the downhaul to get off the hook. (I've got a 6:1 downhaul, btw).

On the rudders... It sounds like the last owner filled the large holes in the rudder where you get to the inside nut of the rudder locking bolt? That's crazy. If you want to restore the adjustment, you might try loosening the exterior nut, then put a wrench on the latch and see if you can break it free. This would only allow you to adjust in one direction, which would induce weather helm, and also (in what I consider a design flaw) will make the kick up issue worse. But if you are able to remove the bolts, you could then drill out the epoxy restoring the ability to adjust the locking bolt. Moving them in will make them latch better, but may also induce lee helm which you definitely do not want. Another option is to replace the rudder springs (available at Murrays.com), or the rudder locking bolts if they are worn and you are able to remove them. Another idea is to take a wrench to the latching bolt and try to bend it up. I would not do this while it is installed as you might crack the rudder.

Finally, as a last resort you can add jam cleats to the tiller bars and cleat the control line that lowers the rudders. I've got one rudder that just started kicking up at high speed (at 18 knots yesterday). I installed the cleats for the raising lines because I don't trust the v cleat to kept my rudders up. It turns out these are great to use with the control line that lowers the rudders if they are not staying down. And if you use 3/16 line, the line will break if you hit something. (Found that out on Weds when I put the boat into some rocks which is another story.)

At some point I will deal with my kick up issue, although it only happens at very high speeds, broad reaching.

The high speed sail yesterday:

https://youtu.be/ldXfQYe8CUQ

Bill that was super helpful thank you! I will try all your suggestions! If the problem with the rudders persists I will just throw down the money for the generation two MX style rudders. I don't anticipate selling this boat, so it may be worth it long term. The cleat idea may be the best immediate fix. I believe a contributing factor is the additional width created by the "reinforcement" that was applied causing the casting to splay slightly, and the rudder perhaps not seating quite as deep as it should.

Speaking with the prior owner, he claims he never had issue with the rudders popping, so perhaps springs will be enough. As in your situation, they only seem to go when we are in the upper teens for speed, but that's also when I need them down. Lol.

theblackpearl wrote: Bill that was super helpful thank you! I will try all your suggestions! If the problem with the rudders persists I will just throw down the money for the generation two MX style rudders. I don't anticipate selling this boat, so it may be worth it long term. The cleat idea may be the best immediate fix. I believe a contributing factor is the additional width created by the "reinforcement" that was applied causing the casting to splay slightly, and the rudder perhaps not seating quite as deep as it should.

Speaking with the prior owner, he claims he never had issue with the rudders popping, so perhaps springs will be enough. As in your situation, they only seem to go when we are in the upper teens for speed, but that's also when I need them down. Lol.

So the reinforcement makes the rudders too wide for the castings? That's a problem on a couple of levels including putting more load on the hinge bolt and also probably contributing to the rudder kick up issue. Can you sand the rudders down to fit the castings? I also had a boat with the castings bent way out wider than the rudder. I fixed it with a C Clamp, literally giving it a half turn every hour or so, and humming a comforting tune to take my mind off the casting cracking at any instant.

I believe there are only two versions of rudders, with the one being larger (The MX style?), and I believe the larger ones use different gudgeons, so you may have to change those as well. (The experts can verify or correct me on this). I do know that one of the sailors in our group has a rudder kick up problem at high speed and attributes the issue to the increased drag of the larger rudders.

[del][/del]

Edited by theblackpearl on Aug 30, 2020 - 03:13 PM.

Thank you all for your insight. I have been thinking more about the main on the ocean situation, and I think the problem may not be my strength vs. friction to raise the sail, but rather the ring getting caught on the bottom of the hook as the mast rotates around while in irons in the waves. So no amount of strength is going to fix the issue, it becomes about technique. I purchased a halyard puller, and I am going to anchor in the sound (without my wife!) and practice to see if I can figure out a better process.

The reinforcement does appear to have made the rudders slightly too wide, especially on the starboard side. They still lock down, but there is some noticeable bend to the casting that could be corrected with your method.

I'm currently on the fence with the rudder repair. I can sand down the rudders, and rebuild the assembly with new springs etc. and keep my fingers crossed that works. Removing the catch bolt might be a challenge as it is epoxied in, but a drill press should be able to take care of it. Less than a $100.00 fix, but have less confidence that it will be effective and quite a bit of time (precious with three young children).
I can invest in the new MX blades and gudgeons as well as all new assembly hardware, and fix it properly but at an expense of close to $900.00.
Third option would be to install a quick release clamcleat on the top of the tiller arm. Says you can set resistance to over 500lb, and it will still break away if you hit something. While this is the easiest, and guaranteed to work, I feel like its also a work around. I also fear that when the rudder does pop (as this doesn't address the root cause just the symptom), no matter how tight you cam the rope, weather helm will still develop due to stretch in the line. Certainly not to the extent as when the rudder is up, but will it be enough to annoy me that I didn't just fix it right to begin with.

Here's my take. I beach up on a sandbar whenever possible to hoist and strike the main. Beachcats are damn unruly at dockside. I carry an anchor. I rig it under the tramp right below the mast step. One day I might fulfill my plan to fix a length of PVC pipe under there so I can just stuff the shank down in it. I have joined the dark side and mounted a Torqueedo motor on a Cheeta mount on the rear crossbar. This takes all the mystery out of maneuvering in a tight ramp basin. One solution to releasing the Aussie ring is to tie a tripline to the ring so you can force the release once you have the ring up off the hook.
As to the rudders get all the epoxy out of there. A heat gun works nicely to soften epoxy. Mind where the hot air goes! Restore them to stock or bite the bullet and replace them.You might be able to scare up a used set. Have you looked at the parts classifieds on this site? Where in NC do you sail? There might be a set in Kitty Hawk i could connect you with.

Edited by gahamby on Aug 30, 2020 - 02:35 PM.

Excellent! The tripline is definitely something to try as well considering I think I misdiagnosed the cause of the main not dropping.
I have considered a motor,...but I don't think that it will help me with reentry into the marina considering the downwind location. Movement isn't the issue, its the inevitable accident I am going to cause by coming in hot. I suppose I should try it in lighter conditions with the main sheeted all the way in and see if its controllable. Just realllly don't want to crash into a Jarrett Bay.
I sail out of Morehead City area, on the crystal coast. Usually going between Atlantic Beach and Emerald Isle on the Bogue Sound. I am planning a trip to nags head next month,...if you have a contact Id love to meet them! Thank you.

Good topic for discussion with some solid takeaways. As a P19 sailor who does a good bit of singlehanded sailing, the first mod I did was to install a roller furling system on the jib. I have found this significantly helps in depowering the sail plan. Also for making tight turns in narrow fairways and channels I like to have the boards up which makes for a quicker turn as long as I have good flow over the rudders.

As far as carrying an anchor especially where it can be quickly deployed is good seamanship. MN3 has some hard earned wisdom and sage advice which I’ve incorporated into my routines and anchor usage is a huge one. I’m a big proponent of lessons learned, (especially by others) as I myself have Up to this point used several of my 9 lives.

Hoisting sail other than tied to a dock or beach is truly a PITA which tests my patience particularly in any sea state and not something I want to routinely do. I agree with gahamby about removing to epoxy to gain access to the tightening bolt. If that doesn’t fix the issue you could always resort to a newer rudder system. Btw I heading to Emerald Isle for a week in mid September and maybe we could hook up for a sail tune up. I plan to launch at 13th Ave and set up a temp mooring in the Sound around 24 ave.

Some pics of the rudder "reinforcement" job. Both rudders suffered the same fate. You can see from the aft image that the casting is flaring out slightly at the bottom due to the extra width. The catch hook its also pretty well expoxied on there. The boat was used in a watertribe challenge and the sailor was concerned about a rudder snapping when racing through the shallows, so he set them and glued them in, not thinking about long term ownership.

Todd that's awesome you're going to be in the area! I would love to meet up! The learning curve has been real and your advice and experience would be invaluable. Let me know your timeline and I'm sure I can make something work out around my work schedule.

https://cypressmooninn.com/wpp/
Consider staying here.
Thats an ugly reinforcement job.

Edited by gahamby on Aug 31, 2020 - 08:40 AM.

Here's my take. I beach up on a sandbar whenever possible to hoist and strike the main.

One solution to releasing the Aussie ring is to tie a tripline to the ring so you can force the release once you have the ring up off the hook.

1 what does strike the main mean?
2 how would this tripline work and how would it be reeved?

thanks!

Strike, to take down.
I would tie the line onto the top of the ring with a tight hitch ( clove, rolling, fisherman's) and let the line fall straight down the mast.

gahamby wrote: Strike, to take down.

- never heard that - thanks!

I would tie the line onto the top of the ring with a tight hitch ( clove, rolling, fisherman's) and let the line fall straight down the mast.

i am confused (nothing new here) - so this is just to pull the ring while pulling from the foot or instead of the foot to help the ring move down (with the mast rotated)?

i dont see pulling from the ring, via 30' below having more bite than pulling from the downhaul lines or the main halyard reeved through the tack but interesting.

please explain if i am missing something -thanks again

It's in the dictionary.
You have to pull the ring aft so it backs away from the hook. I'll grant you it's a bit of a cheat, but if you're out on the water and need the main down it helps.

You have to pull the ring aft so it backs away from the hook. I'll grant you it's a bit of a cheat, but if you're out on the water and need the main down it helps.

hmmmmmm
in my world you have to move the hook (twist mast 90*), not the ring - static, attached to head of sail with little wiggle room

but i guess if you can twist the ring the correct way it would help - thanks for splainin'

It's in the dictionary.

Holllly molllly - i never realized how many meanings this word had

Definition of strike

(Entry 1 of 2)

intransitive verb
1 : to take a course : go struck off through the brush
2a : to aim and usually deliver a blow, stroke, or thrust (as with the hand, a weapon, or a tool)
b : to arrive with detrimental effect disaster struck
c : to attempt to undermine or harm something as if by a blow struck at … cherished notions— R. P. Warren
3 : to come into contact forcefully two ships struck in mid channel
4 : to delete something
5 : to lower a flag usually in surrender
6a : to become indicated by a clock, bell, or chime the hour had just struck
b : to make known the time by sounding the clock struck as they entered
7 : pierce, penetrate the wind seemed to strike through our clothes
8a : to engage in battle
b : to make a military attack
9 : to become ignited the match struck
10 : to discover something struck on a new plan of attack
11a : to pull on a fishing rod in order to set the hook
b of a fish : to seize the bait
12 : dart, shoot
13a of a plant cutting : to take root
b of a seed : germinate
14 : to make an impression
15 : to stop work in order to force an employer to comply with demands
16 : to make a beginning the need to strike vigorously for success
17 : to thrust oneself forward he struck into the midst of the argument
18 : to work diligently : strive

transitive verb
1a : to strike at : hit
b : to drive or remove by or as if by a blow
c : to attack or seize with a sharp blow (as of fangs or claws) struck by a snake
d : inflict strike a blow
e : to produce by or as if by a blow or stroke Moses struck water from the rock
f : to separate by a sharp blow strike off flints
2a : to haul down : lower strike the sails
b : to dismantle and take away strike the set
c : to strike the tents of (a camp)
3 : to afflict suddenly stricken by a heart attack
4a : to engage in (a battle) : fight
b : to make a military attack on
5 : delete, cancel strike the last paragraph
6a : to penetrate painfully : pierce
b : to cause to penetrate strike the needle
c : to send down or out trees struck roots deep into the soil
7a : to level (something, such as a measure of grain) by scraping off what is above the rim
b : to smooth or form (something, such as a mold) with a tool
8 : to indicate by sounding the clock struck one
9a(1) : to bring into forceful contact struck his head on the doorjamb
(2) : to shake (hands) in confirming an agreement
(3) : to thrust suddenly
b : to come into contact or collision with the car struck the tree
c of light : to fall on
d of a sound : to become audible to
10a : to affect with a mental or emotional state or a strong emotion struck with horror at the sight
b : to affect a person with (a strong emotion) words that struck fear in the listeners
c : to cause to become by or as if by a sudden blow struck him dead
11a : to produce by stamping strike a coin
b(1) : to produce (something, such as fire) by or as if by striking
(2) : to cause to ignite by friction strike a match
12 : to make and ratify the terms of strike a bargain
13a : to play or produce by hitting or plucking keys or strings struck a series of chords on the piano
b : to produce as if by playing an instrument his voice struck a note of concern
14a : to hook (a fish) by a sharp pull on the line
b of a fish : to snatch at (a bait)
15a : to occur to the answer struck me suddenly
b : to appear to especially as a revelation or as remarkable : impress it struck the crowd as insensitive
16 : bewitch
17 : to arrive at by or as if by computation strike a balance
18a : to come to : attain
b : to come upon : discover strike gold
19 : to engage in a strike against (an employer)
20 : take on, assume strike a pose
21a : to place (a plant cutting) in a medium for growth and rooting
b : to so propagate (a plant)
22 : to make one's way along will strike the southern coast
23 : to cause (an arc) to form (as between electrodes of an arc lamp)
24 of an insect : to oviposit on or in
strike it rich
: to become rich usually suddenly

strike noun

Definition of strike (Entry 2 of 2)
1 : a tool for smoothing a surface (as of a mold)
2 : an act or instance of striking
3a : a work stoppage by a body of workers to enforce compliance with demands made on an employer
b : a temporary stoppage of activities in protest against an act or condition
4 : the direction of the line of intersection of a horizontal plane with an uptilted geological stratum
5a : a pull on a fishing rod to strike a fish
b : a pull on a line by a fish in striking
6 : a stroke of good luck especially : a discovery of a valuable mineral deposit
7a : a pitched ball that is in the strike zone or is swung at and is not hit fair
b : a perfectly thrown ball or pass
8 : disadvantage, handicap
9 : an act or instance of knocking down all the bowling pins with the first bowl
10 : establishment of roots and plant growth
11 : cutaneous myiasis (as of sheep)
12a : a military attack especially : an air attack on a single objective
b : a group of airplanes taking part in such an attack

Transitive verb, example 2a.
The OP indicated he was having trouble getting the head of the mainsail high enough to disengage the ring from the hook. A trip line would help by pulling the ring aft of the hook if he could not rotate the mast enough.
I found once I had a square top main the leverage of the jack batten made it easier to clear the ring when rotating the mast.

The OP indicated he was having trouble getting the head of the mainsail high enough to disengage the ring from the hook.

Good point - i had forgotten that part.

i find on my cat(s) when my sail "wont go up", i have accidentaly hoisted the ring above the hook and the hook is now engaged in the shackle section. this is almost certainly going to require me flipping my boat to get the hook out of there.

i have used wire and monster tape to tape up that part of the ring so this can't happen . i think i am due for an inspection of this wire/tape

I don't think I could get the head high enough to hook the shackle of my Aussie ring. That would really suck.

theblackpearl wrote: There is a set of MX rudders available, but at $600 its 20% of the boat's cost and hard to justify.

If you get the MX rudders you need the extended gudgeons AND the longer tubes that come forward out of the rudder castings to connect to the tiller crossbar. This moves the tiller crossbar forward into place over the hull crossbar, countering the effect of the extended gudgeons. This upgrade could be $1000. Consider finding good used rudders for the 19 - they are interchangable with the 18-2. The original rudders on the 15, 16 and 18 are not the same.

Thank you all so much for your advice and insight. I have been lost in thought contemplating your answers and experience. I have learned a ton already- from the numerous definitions of strike, to multiple avenues to tackle my problems. Fortunately, I’ve got the day off tomorrow and 6 knot morning winds on a high tide. Probably the lightest day we’ve taken her out so it will be nice to test some options at a more relaxed pace.

Edited by theblackpearl on Sep 01, 2020 - 10:13 PM.

Well after all the useful insight, and MN3's guidance on the unimportance of ROI, I decided to go all in and fix it right. New gudgeons, new castings, new lift and lock assembly, and new MX rudders! They lock in strong and hold properly. Of course now I haven't had a chance to take it out in conditions that previously caused them to pop, but I am confident that this fixed the problem. I was going to get the casting/tubes gold anodized for looks, but I was told I am an idiot. Now I'm working on restoring the old set of rudders just to have an alternative on hand. Finished the many hours of buffing the gelcoat, and I'm surprised at how much shine a 40 year old boat still has in her!

Edited by theblackpearl on Nov 07, 2020 - 11:54 AM.

the unimportance of ROI,

Rudders that work - priceless
rudders that don't work - worthless

I was going to get the casting/tubes gold anodized for looks, but I was told I am an idiot.

😆 😛 😆

Congrats! Looks great

one comment about your tiller cross-bar. IF the hole that holds your hiking stick is not 180* i have learned it is best that the angle is slanted aft (from above). that way if the stick falls overboard (or flails in a capsize) - the stick should have more room to swivel aft and reduces the chance of it snapping off . this is pretty small detail but hiking stick are expensive. and people have a habit of holding on to anything for dear life in a capsize ... i have seen more than one snap in my day

I haven't had a chance to take it out in conditions that previously caused them to pop, but I am confident that this fixed the problem.

you can test the "hold" of your rudders by gently but firmly (sounds like an oxymoron) kicking them on the bottom of the leading edge (front edge). start light and increase strength

kick with 15 knots of pressure ! (jk) but this can give you and idea of at what force they release - just be careful - no need to keep kicking harder and harder if they wont release but you can still get them to lift when needed

Edited by MN3 on Nov 07, 2020 - 02:17 PM.