How did you mount your electric winch on your trailer?

I don't have an electric winch but I think mounting a manual is about the same.
1) About waist high on the mast support. If you bolt it on you can get it off in the field if you need to replace it.
2) The best you can afford with a manual backup handle. Because if it fails your screwed.
3) Yes. My mast support telescopes up to about 10'-0". I have a keel roller up there that I put the strap from the winch through. It's permanent but a temporary snatch block for a wire or rope winch would serve.
4) If I had an electric winch I would use Anderson connectors so I could connect it to the truck or a separate battery.

The thing about an electric winch is you won't be able to feel the rig if an undue strain occurs. On my rig I can feel if something is binding within one turn of the crank. Not that I haven't considered an electric winch but I have a 15' SC an electric winch would be overkill.

http://www.batterymart.com/c-industrial-connectors.html?gclid=CK_r_u_NvM8CFQtahgod3-QFqg

I link this only for reference. No endorsement is implied.

Let us know how it works out,good luck GH

been using electric winches for years to raise/lower the mast and pull the cat onto the trailer.
i bought a 2500lb winch with wireless remote control from harbor freight and it's made hauling my cat onto the trailer a piece of cake! i mounted it on the forward mast support and power it with a Superwinch wiring kit that i wired back to my engine. it comes with plenty of wire length. i only connect it to the battery when i'm using it.

http://www.harborfreight.…emote-control-61840.html
https://www.amazon.com/Su…Wiring-Kit/dp/B00008PWWJ

the wireless remote lets me stand near the back of the boat and guide it onto the trailer. single handed loading.

i made a gin pole to raise & lower the mast using the electric winch.
j

The Harbor freight link doesn't get there. Do you mount a turning block on the trailer tongue to pull the gin pole?
Is it this one?

http://www.harborfreight.com/2500-lb-atvutility-electric-winch-with-wireless-remote-control-61840.html

Edited by gahamby on Oct 03, 2016 - 02:15 PM.

i made a gin pole to raise & lower the mast using the electric winch.

This is KEY

I would be very hesitant to use a stock trailer mast support / winch to step or drop the mast

A gin pole uses a lever to reduce the forces needed to step a mast - (we just stepped a 45' f31R mast with a 8' jin pole and hand trailer winch - try doing that witout a jin pole ....)

I thought a gin pole was used to create the proper angle of purchase.

I thought a gin pole was used to create the proper angle of purchase.

not sure what "angle of purchase" means but...

the main goal of the pole is to reduce the "weight" of the mast by means of a fulcrum and lever to "increase the applied force in order to lift a heavy load"

You can use a lever to increase the applied force in order to lift a heavy load. Class 1 or Class 2 levers are used to increase the output force.

Lever force equation

Assuming the resistive friction force at the fulcrum is negligible, the relationship between the input or effort and force on the load is dependent on the ratio of the arms of the lever, according to the equation:

FO/FI = dI/dO

where

FO is the output force or the load (can also be the weight lifted)
FI is the effort or input force
dI is the length of the effort or input arm
dO is the length of the load or output arm
Note: FO/FI is also the force mechanical advantage of the lever.

(See Force Mechanical Advantage for more information.)

Derivation

The derivation of this equation starts with the fact that work is a product of the force times the distance moved or displacement:

WI = FIDI

WO = FODO

where

WI is the work done by the effort or input work
FI is the effort or input force
DI is the input distance the effort moves
and

FO is the output force or the load (can also be the weight lifted)
DO is the output distance the load is moved
WO is the work done by the load or output work
According to the Law of Conservation of Energy, the output energy or work equals the input work:

WO = WI

Thus:

FODO = FIDI

DO/DI = FO/FI

Applying this relationship to the distance equation (DO/DI = dO/dI) for levers, you get:

FO/FI = dI/dO

(See Increasing Distance Moved with a Lever for more information.)

Application

How much effort is required to lift a load of 20 kilograms when the effort arm is 10 meters and the load arm is 1 meter?

Start by solving FOdO= FIdI for FI:

FI = FOdO/dI

Substitute in values:

FO = 20 kg

dO = 0.5 m

dI = 2 m

FI = 20*(0.5)/2 = 5 kg push required to lift the 20 kg weight.

Summary

You can use a Class 1 or Class 2 lever to increase the force pushing on the load, according to where the fulcrum is located. To increase the force on the load, the length of the effort arm of the lever must be greater than the length of the load arm.

The equation for the forces relates to the force mechanical advantage of the lever. The force equation is:

FO/FI = dI/dO

From the equation, you can determine an unknown force or length.

:prost:

Love it, this is the kind of crazily detailed answers we got on the hobielist back in the '90's when most of the members were engineers and pilots.

My version: The gin pole is a lever that makes it easier to raise the mast.

:ficktmich:

I agree about not attaching a power winch directly to the mast support where the hand winch is attached on most catamaran trailers. Most stock trailers have a pretty weak mast support, they are only designed to be something to support the weight of the mast (downward) and don't have much strength when pulled back towards the boat.

I've only seen a couple of successful power winch installs and they had a custom very strong mast support and the power winch was mounted to the main frame of the trailer and not to the support.

That's all very impressive. The gin pole picks up the lift line so instead of pulling straight down the mast you have a usable angle to lift or lower the mast. I do the same thing with a tall mast support. How many people do you imagine can or will go through all the above calculations before they come up with a mast raising rig? From an engineering standpoint it's the right thing to do. Instead of all that calculation show us what the load is at the mast attachment, the turn at the gin pole, the turning block and winch for the 45' mast you raised.

Instead of all that calculation show us what the load is at the mast attachment, the turn at the gin pole, the turning block and winch for the 45' mast you raised.

show you the load? haha

you can see the process here - around the 10 min and 13 min mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqsbJn475_g

I'm familiar with the process of standing up a spar with a gin pole. How would you reinforce a mast support to accomplish what the OP had in mind?

How would you reinforce a mast support to accomplish what the OP had in mind?

I wouldn't
it is a recipe for catastrophic failure

On all my cats, i turn them around so i can use the mast support to "angle"my mast so i can easily get under it and solo step it

on my 6.0 the fabricator created a extendable yoke

Edited by MN3 on Oct 03, 2016 - 08:29 PM.

I have an EZ-LOADER trailer and the mast support has bracing on it going from the mast support to the tongue of the trailer, I assume it came this way from the factory as it looks original. I would like to add a small hand crank winch just for help in loading the boat, for now, I raise the mast by hand.

I had a gusset welded on my mast support down at the base. The mast support leans forward on my trailer. I had allowed for a cable from the top of the support to the tongue but found I didn't need it. Two of the guys I sail with trail turned around. One uses a gin pole with the lift line secured to whatever fixed point is handy at the ramp. The other goes Iwo Jima style with a person on belay with the jib halyard out front. Once he gets the mast to shoulder height the belay line has a usable angle and the guy out front can help pull up.

http://www.thebeachcats.com/pictures?g2_itemId=103408

Edited by gahamby on Oct 03, 2016 - 10:05 PM.

I dig the gray paint job.

I agree about not attaching a power winch directly to the mast support where the hand winch is attached on most catamaran trailers. Most stock trailers have a pretty weak mast support, they are only designed to be something to support the weight of the mast (downward) and don't have much strength when pulled back towards the boat.

The thing is every powerboat trailer I have ever seen has a winch on a winch post at waist height. They winch on some heavy boats. If you led your lift line down to the tongue, through a snatch block and up to the gin pole you wouldn't be putting on more strain than you would for recovering the boat. All the mast supports I've encountered are just a taller winch post.

I dig the gray paint job.

thanks, Imron on the hulls, awegrip on the spars

Edited by MN3 on Oct 03, 2016 - 09:02 PM.

The thing is every powerboat trailer I have ever seen has a winch on a winch post at waist height. They winch on some heavy boats.

Yes but this "design" is to move a floating boat up a few feet (or inches) until the hull kisses the bow stop. and it is pulling in a straight line...

Here is what I am hearing:

I like the idea of the harbor freight ATV winch. They sell two model numbers of the same unit, and one has a lag in the wireless controller that lets it run for a second or two after you release the button. Not good if you have snagged something while raising the mast. Also, to use this winch with the four roller fairlead included, you have to also purchase the mounting plate from Harbor Freight. I like the bolt (vs weld) idea.

Wireless power control lets you be one of the people controlling the swing of the mast from the side or back of the boat as it goes up. You can also look for potential snags.

I envision mounting the winch at the base of the mast support facing up, and using a removable snatch block at the top of the support to send the cable back to the boat. The mast support will be strengthened with a support that leads from pretty high on the mast support to the front of the trailer tongue. This may be standing rigging cable and u-bolts. This will work well for loading the cat on the trailer, but raising and lowering the mast will clearly require a gin pole.

If feels dumb writing this, but I have a problem paying more for the wiring kit than the winch. I found a 20 foot set of 6 ga copper wire jumper cables online, with which I could make a permanent 2-wire harness, using the proper connectors and a circuit breaker. If left connected, the winches continue to draw a bit of power, so disconnects are a must.

To leave the winch on the trailer, it will need a waterproof, trailerable cover. This I can fashion from Top Gun material or something similar.

Thanks everyone for your advice and photos.
If you haven't jumped in here and have something to add, please do.
If you disagree, let 'er rip!
I have no ego about asking for advice.

All of it valuable.

Bob

I envision mounting the winch at the base of the mast support facing up

My objection to this would be the possibility of immersing the winch when launching or recovering. Having the winch facing up would allow the most debris and water to fall into the winch.

Yes but this "design" is to move a floating boat up a few feet (or inches) until the hull kisses the bow stop. and it is pulling in a straight line...

Doesn't the straight aft pull exert the most leverage on the base of the winch post?

Doesn't the straight aft pull exert the most leverage on the base of the winch post?

i am not an engineer (nor trying to be argumentative) i would hypothesize the higher the winch is up the post changes the location of the effort / strain

I.E. ceteris paribus...

if you have a 6' post and place the winch (or block) at the very top the post will fail (bend) in the middle

if you have a 6' post and place the winch (or block) at the base of post the post will fail at the base (or attachment point)

assuming 3' is "straight aft"it will fail in the middle (1.5')

you stated that "heavy boats are pulled up the trailer via a winch on a post"... That's a floating boat... doesn't matter how much the boat weighs (to a point) if it is floating...

no one is pulling a powerboat up a beach or onto a trailer using a hand winch

Edited by MN3 on Oct 04, 2016 - 03:59 PM.

I like the idea of the harbor freight ATV winch. They sell two model numbers of the same unit,

I own a HF BadLands 2500 lb. ATV winch - it has the WORST duty cycle rate (5%) I have ever heard of and due to this , it works for about 45 seconds of use (pulling my 5.5 on a trailer in my yard (with a trailer dolly/wheels attached to the tongue) before going into thermal shutdown for 15 - 20 minutes

"This Winch with a 5% duty cycle at its
maximum load must be allowed to rest for at least
14 minutes, 15 seconds after every 45 seconds of
continuous operation. Failure to carefully observe
duty cycle limitations can easily over-stress a
Winch contributing to premature Winch failure."

http://manuals.harborfreight.com/manuals/61000-61999/61297.pdf (Page 12)

You may want to consider a different brand

Edited by MN3 on Oct 04, 2016 - 04:12 PM.

MN3 wrote: I own a HF BadLands 2500 lb. ATV winch - it has the WORST duty cycle rate (5%) I have ever heard of and due to this , it works for about 45 seconds of use...

Holy crap.
Thanks for the heads up.
45 seconds at about 10 feet per second (with 500 lb load rating implied in their chart) is 7.5 feet of travel.
I could neither raise the mast nor pull the boat up on trailer in 7.5 feet, then have to wait 14 minutes to continue.
Even at no load and 13.5 feet per second, the task may not be done when it cuts out. Hopefully the load lock works during shutdown.
Even with this short operating cycle, it may be enough to get the mast mostly upright, and the cat on the four rollers, just not a completed job in either case. Finishing the job manually after the help through the hard part is better than what I am doing now, but that is too many maybes. I will investigate a better duty cycle if I am going to put the money out for this project.
Thanks MN3!
Bob

Thanks MN3!

🙂 - glad to help

What am I missing? Isn't 10 feet per second for 45 seconds equal to 450 feet?

Ah, I looked at the chart. It's ft per minute, not second

Edited by tnell on Oct 06, 2016 - 01:08 PM.

tnell wrote: What am I missing? Isn't 10 feet per second for 45 seconds equal to 450 feet?

Ah, I looked at the chart. It's ft per minute, not second

Yeah, my bad.
Thank you for the correction. 🙂

What am I missing? Isn't 10 feet per second for 45 seconds equal to 450 feet?

I know a few people on this forum use this (or similar model) winch to pull their cats out of the water, or up a bank and seem to have little or no "duty cycle" issues

The 1 time i tried to use the winch ...

I was goofing around with it for a little bit prior to use with no load but was running it to "cleanly" reeve the cable

when i did hook it up to the trailer just a few min later (not giving it much time to rest..) it was not a "clean" (straight) pull, and the fairlead was not in place, and i was having issues so the loads were not constant..

I would guesstimate i was able to move the boat/trailer about 50' before it shut down

This was in the middle of summer here in fla (aka the sun) and it was hot and muggy ... i am sure that all added to the ridiculously poor results i had

DamonLinkous wrote: My version: The gin pole is a lever that makes it easier to raise the mast.

Agreed.
A gin pole can be mounted on the mast itself, or anywhere between the mast and winch, adding favorable leverage to the situation.
So gin poles come in a myriad of lengths, configurations, and applications.
Some have pulleys for the lifting line, some have yolks that simply lift the mast into a more favorable position.

I have found a marine winch that has a favorable run cycle and speed. Doing further research now, will update in a bit.

Edited by klozhald on Oct 08, 2016 - 08:29 PM.

Kloz,

I was just trying to figure out what I was missing there. I'm glad you pointed that duty cycle issue. I'm not planning to go electric but it's good info to have

klozhald wrote: [quote=tnell]What am I missing? Isn't 10 feet per second for 45 seconds equal to 450 feet?

Ah, I looked at the chart. It's ft per minute, not second

Yeah, my bad.
Thank you for the correction. 🙂

klozhald wrote: [quote=tnell]What am I missing? Isn't 10 feet per second for 45 seconds equal to 450 feet?

Ah, I looked at the chart. It's ft per minute, not second

Yeah, my bad.
Thank you for the correction. 🙂

I mounted a version of a gin pole that's commercially available on my P16 last year. It works fine but in the end I found it's easier for me to raise the mast single handed. With a little practice it works no problem.

On my P19 (and possibly also on the P18-2) there's a new problem b/c of the 90degree mast rotation on this specific model so the forestay when connected to the winch line runs at an angle to the mast in the horizontal plane which induces a strong pull to the side. My initial trial with the e-winch failed for this reason and the mast went sideways over my head. I learned a couple of things though: A) it's quite a hazardous procedure..... B) as a few mentioned there's a lot of stress on material, wires and load BUT the cheap HF e-winch should work if I pick up a good fraction of the lifting load when supporting the vertical mast movement.

I am not sure whether the pull to the side can be successfully countered when the mast goes up further next time. I made the mistake not to mount the tramp with a ladder set up by the rear beam to get to that part. I doubt bungee cords will do the trick. Maybe a gin pole would help. I am not quite done with testing my initial set up. More after my shoulder has recovered from the tweaking...

Maybe a better solution is just to get a newer style boat with a carbon mast...and avoid any possible accidents at the trailer parking lot?