Dart 18 low wind sails

It’s hard to get more sq ft. You could use an N7.5, also boomless, but, the Dart mast is 2’ shorter. You would have to cut the sail down, or have no room as it sweeps the deck.
Same goes for the foot. The Nacra sail is longer, but unless you could move the main blocks further back, you wouldn’t be able to obtain sheet tension.
A new squaretop might give more sq ft, but that’s an expensive option.
My solution is to keep several Cats, the Baby Dart for over 20 it’s, & a Hobie18 or Nacra for lighter days.

One other option, the Dart carries a hanky as a jib. You could put a 5.7 jib on, but I’m not sure how much speed that would gain you.
It would be easy to try if you can borrow a jib for an afternoon.

to add more main area you will need to lower the foot a little, add a squaretop and much more roach ... there isn't anywhere else to do it

so a 5.7 could be drastically recut and provide all that -

i THINK you already have an oversized jib if i recall correctly what Stu told me - you could find out the stock measurements and verify this. but also adding an ever bigger one could be an option

at the price of purchasing 2 sails in good condition and having them modified ,.. Ed's argument for a second boat may not be a bad one.

Boomless gets tricky in mixing and matching. You will need to verify the mainsheet angle and distance from traveler to clew. For playing around, you can typically cut 2' off the top of a pin head main to convert to a square top. I had cut a pin head Tornado main down for my P-19 years ago, but I had to use a short pennant. I used it for 25+ knot winds. It actually fits my P18-2 perfectly. With a trained eye, I can notice some funkyness with the top, but for the most part it works very well. I would look into adding a foil and bigger jib. With the square top main and the foiled jib, you are adding efficient sail area - the square top bleeds off easily and the jib power is down low. The foil does add some complication of visibility leeward forward. You could have two jibs for different breezes.. A small expense for piece of mind.

I fabricated a foil for my dart and rigged a hobie 18 jib, seemed to work ok .A bigger main would be the way to go as you seen to get more drive from your main.I have a couple of p18 mains that I was going to get around to modifying to fit.A nacra 5.8 recently fell in my lap so I am restoring that to be my light wind boat.
I have heard of but never seen it, a dart 18 locally with a hobie 16 rig
the h18 jib is in this vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owv2JhcULSw

Edited by onekiwi on Jan 27, 2020 - 01:45 PM.

Edchris177 wrote: One other option, the Dart carries a hanky as a jib. You could put a 5.7 jib on, but I’m not sure how much speed that would gain you.
It would be easy to try if you can borrow a jib for an afternoon.

MN3 is correct, I already have an oversized jib. To be fair, I’m sure some of my difficulty in low wind is lack of skill. That said, you can only imagine the frustration of barely being able to overcome the current.

MN3 wrote: to add more main area you will need to lower the foot a little, add a squaretop and much more roach ... there isn't anywhere else to do it

so a 5.7 could be drastically recut and provide all that -

i THINK you already have an oversized jib if i recall correctly what Stu told me - you could find out the stock measurements and verify this. but also adding an ever bigger one could be an option

at the price of purchasing 2 sails in good condition and having them modified ,.. Ed's argument for a second boat may not be a bad one.

I’d consider a Nacra 5.0, but storage is the issue for me. I’d pay far more to store a second boat than I would a sail. If I can identify the best sail to modify, I may be able to pick one up used. Absent someone with greater experience telling me this is not the way to go, that’s the plan.

dartsailors wrote: [quote=Edchris177]One other option, the Dart carries a hanky as a jib. You could put a 5.7 jib on, but I’m not sure how much speed that would gain you.
It would be easy to try if you can borrow a jib for an afternoon.

MN3 is correct, I already have an oversized jib. To be fair, I’m sure some of my difficulty in low wind is lack of skill. That said, you can only imagine the frustration of barely being able to overcome the current.

Fully understand the frustration. When I started on cats, we would leave sailing mid afternoon and come home late night. Which meant there was very little wind, as in 0-3 knots. I learned patience very quickly. I also learned the most efficient way to paddle a catamaran. In light air, the catamaran emphasizes the need for true sailing basics. I was lucky enough to start racing cats with some very fast people. I always remind myself, "... if in doubt, let it out"

Is rigging a spinnaker out of the question? I've done diy spinnaker pole and chute for light air on a dinghy.

You wouldn't want to use it in any real wind, but for light air...

You'd pair it with a 2nd hand kite from an 18ft cat or from, say, a 29er. I'm sure you can buy a beat up 29er kite for peanuts.

Headed back to Fort Lauderdale 2/12 but don't have my spare jibs there to re-experiment with all my sails to determine if on light wind days a different sail configuration on my Dart 18 would speed things up. However these are the combos I've tried on low wind days on my dart 18 I keep on Fire Island NY: A Prindle 16 jib worked out best because much smaller and tmanageable than the Hobie 16 jib- also experimented with my. Nacra 5.2&5.5&5.7 jibs but way too unwieldy even when reefed. I also tried Hobi 16, Prindle 16 Mains & my Nacra 5.2,5.5&5.7 mains-all were way too large even when carefully reefed.( my friend Malcolm Stitt Tornado sailer has successfully cut down larger sails for his ice boats but I don't have the courage.)At one point had Dart 18 and Nacra 5.7 for 3 seasons and yes that was best solution. Also Great South Bay what I now sail on off fire island( use to sail on the Atlantic) almost ALWAYS has wind over 12k , so when u rig a larger jib and wind builds you have negative results and on Dart 18 jib and main difficult if not impossible to lower because "hooked" in when underway- ( Nacra 5.7,5.5&5.2 mains require a 2to 3 foot higher mast!) Hobie 16 jib was kind of like a gennecker also because Dart 18 mast does not rotate on a plastic/Teflon ball like my Nacra 5.2,5.5,5.7 the aluminum on aluminum Dart18 mast set-up actually can wear out!!!i have had to replace 1 Dart 18 mast because of this I believe larger sails could contribute to greater wear & tear on mast base! The Hobie 16 jib(I pinpriked tiny holes in H16 jib and fit thin cord so jib would run up Dart 18 forestay)was like a gennecker/spinicker andrunning with the wind on low wind days was enjoyable, and negated the frustration of being wiped out by my friends Hobie 16s Nacra570. ( worst of all monohulls)& etc on low wind days

Headed back to Fort Lauderdale 2/12 but don't have my spare jibs there to re-experiment with all my sails to determine if on light wind days a different sail configuration on my Dart 18 would speed things up. However these are the combos I've tried on low wind days on my dart 18 I keep on Fire Island NY: A Prindle 16 jib worked out best because much smaller and tmanageable than the Hobie 16 jib- also experimented with my. Nacra 5.2&5.5&5.7 jibs but way too unwieldy even when reefed. I also tried Hobi 16, Prindle 16 Mains & my Nacra 5.2,5.5&5.7 mains-all were way too large even when carefully reefed.( my friend Malcolm Stitt Tornado sailer has successfully cut down larger sails for his ice boats but I don't have the courage.)At one point had Dart 18 and Nacra 5.7 for 3 seasons and yes that was best solution. Also Great South Bay what I now sail on off fire island( use to sail on the Atlantic) almost ALWAYS has wind over 12k , so when u rig a larger jib and wind builds you have negative results and on Dart 18 jib and main difficult if not impossible to lower because "hooked" in when underway- ( Nacra 5.7,5.5&5.2 mains require a 2to 3 foot higher mast!) Hobie 16 jib was kind of like a gennecker also because Dart 18 mast does not rotate on a plastic/Teflon ball like my Nacra 5.2,5.5,5.7 the aluminum on aluminum Dart18 mast set-up actually can wear out!!!i have had to replace 1 Dart 18 mast because of this I believe larger sails could contr]ibute to greater wear & tear on mast base! The Hobie 16 jib(I pinpriked tiny holes in H16 jib and fit thin cord so jib would run up Dart 18 forestay)was like a gennecker/spinicker andrunning with the wind on low wind days was enjoyable, and negated the frustration of being wiped out by my friends Hobie 16s Nacra570. ( worst of all monohulls)& etc on low wind days

Headed back to Fort Lauderdale 2/12 but don't have my spare jibs there to re-experiment with all my sails to determine if on light wind days a different sail configuration on my Dart 18 would speed things up. However these are the combos I've tried on low wind days on my dart 18 I keep on Fire Island NY: A Prindle 16 jib worked out best because much smaller and tmanageable than the Hobie 16 jib- also experimented with my. Nacra 5.2&5.5&5.7 jibs but way too unwieldy even when reefed. I also tried Hobi 16, Prindle 16 Mains & my Nacra 5.2,5.5&5.7 mains-all were way too large even when carefully reefed.( my friend Malcolm Stitt Tornado sailer has successfully cut down larger sails for his ice boats but I don't have the courage.)At one point had Dart 18 and Nacra 5.7 for 3 seasons and yes that was best solution. Also Great South Bay what I now sail on off fire island( use to sail on the Atlantic) almost ALWAYS has wind over 12k , so when u rig a larger jib and wind builds you have negative results and on Dart 18 jib and main difficult if not impossible to lower because "hooked" in when underway- ( Nacra 5.7,5.5&5.2 mains require a 2to 3 foot higher mast!) Hobie 16 jib was kind of like a gennecker also because Dart 18 mast does not rotate on a plastic/Teflon ball like my Nacra 5.2,5.5,5.7 the aluminum on aluminum Dart18 mast set-up actually can wear out!!!i have had to replace 1 Dart 18 mast because of this I believe larger sails could contr]ibute to greater wear & tear on mast base! The Hobie 16 jib(I pinpriked tiny holes in H16 jib and fit thin cord so jib would run up Dart 18 forestay)was like a gennecker/spinicker andrunning with the wind on low wind days was enjoyable, and negated the frustration of being wiped out by my friends Hobie 16s Nacra570. ( worst of all monohulls)& etc on low wind days[email][/email]

the aluminum on aluminum Dart18 mast set-up actually can wear out!!!

The mast base on the dart is stainless on stainless and quite durable. Windsport has all the parts for dart boats.

first i apologize my comment printed out 3 times. comment of durability of bottom of Dart 18 mast is not accurate,
I presently own 2 Dart 18s and sail both,had 3 but lost one to a Florida hurricane(that came north and took my Nacra 5.7) 2 years back. The mast i utilize now on Dart 18 in Fort Lauderdale was fortuneately fished out of the water after the storm. I had to exchange Dart !8 mast for my Fire Island Dart 18 because the Mast base wore out! & the bottom of the mast(there is a small stainless plate)yes the rest of that mast is in excellant shape. Have you ever replaced a mast base & bottom of mast? very big hastle-i had to on a Hobie 16 i flipped surfing cat in the Atlantic-bought new extrusions and used old base & top ,& replaced mast base, but hobie dealers nere by and reasonable. Windsport very pricey and it can take 3 weeks to get a part. I actually replaced mast base and will try to send photos tomorrow- had to, took my wife sailing , mast seemed insecure and in cross currents when becalmed came down!! Thats why larger jib good idea. I really only wanted to add there are Dart 18 spinnakers but they are not class legal(race any Dart 18s in U S waters lately?)

Hi I got a Dart 18 in the uk and the I just want to say was just make sure you get as much weight to the front of the boat I have both the crew and helm sitting on the front beam . I know I am probably telling you to suck eggs but I found out the hard way how much different that made. I manages to get a 20 foot tall channel marker between the 2 hulls getting pushed on to it by the current and what wind there was need a pull from a passing motor boat to remove myself from it. It gave the crowd outside the club something to watch. Just be carful with putting extra sails on the Dart in Europe there is a company that makes a fat top main ( https://forward-sailing.co.uk/en/97-mainsail-dart-18-dacron.htm)l but I have heard top Dart sailors saying a mast wont last long using one I am guessing you would need more than 9 knot to do any damage. There was spinnaker kit made for the Dart 18 in the 90's but it was never allowed for racing so never took off. They do come up on ebay every so often.

I wish I'd seen the advice on cutting down sails a year ago. I've outfitted my Dart 18 for the Everglades Challenge this March. The rules require a reefing system for the main, so instead of putting money into the old sails, I had a custom set made with 2 sets of reefs and a square top. We also made a modest increase in the jib's size.

The square top is nice, I would do the same again, but it isn't a massive change.

The reefing points are awesome for singlehanding in stronger winds. If I always sailed with crew, the value wouldn't be as great, but for solo ocean racing, it's necessary. I did find that with the mainsail's roach, the sheeting angle from the mainsheet moves in when reefing, which is opposite to what would be ideal. In hindsight, I would have the reefing clew ring installed slightly below a batten and moved in away from the luff by a few inches.

I don't have a spinnaker for the boat, and that will hurt my competitiveness. I'm figuring on keeping it simple for a first time around. Money is also a factor. I do have an old 505 symmetrical spinnaker I'm considering flying from the bridle chain plates as a strictly downwind sail in light wind, but I'm probably just as well off tacking downwind with the working sails. I don't want to waste money that can go towards an asymmetrical rig.

As mentioned earlier, weight forward is the way to speed it up in light wind. I like to see both transoms clear of the water and usually one rudder up.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/EnoLjXQgvivSbLy88

duplicate post deleted by jeff96

Edited by jeff96 on Jan 31, 2020 - 12:19 PM.

I did find that with the mainsail's roach, the sheeting angle from the mainsheet moves in when reefing, which is opposite to what would be ideal. In hindsight, I would have the reefing clew ring installed slightly below a batten and moved in away from the luff by a few inches.

Forgive me if i am confused but wouldn't moving the clew in while reefing produce a flatter sail? wouldn't that be a plus in heavy air? - sidenote: couldn't you just add a new clew in your preferred location? since the clew should be reinforced: it shouldn't hurt the sail

Where did you get your sail made?

Looking forward to seeing your cat on rigging day at Ft Desoto

What I meant, not what I said. The reefing clew out on the roach moves the sheeting angle more downward and less outward making the sail slightly fuller. A new clew ring further in would potentially fix the problem, but I'm going to sail it as is; it's a minor detail.

Sail by Triton Sails in Mississauga, Ontario. Great guy to work with.

Edited by jeff96 on Jan 31, 2020 - 01:56 PM.

"The cats out of the. Bag" (pun attempted), I presumed noone took notice that in speeds up to 12ks I lifted a rudder out of the water to gain an advantage and always in low wind conditions. dart 18s use spanners ( lines that attach from aft clew/grommet on main(boom less)next to where blocks attach spanning below main to bottom of mast where down haul and wishbone are located. I attach small blocks at either end to tighten spanner to achieve best pocket in main for sailing conditions. Tried to use spannerson Nacra.5.2,5.5,5.7 &570 but no advantage seemed to be gained. Brexit Brits know much more about Darts since they race and Darts are very popular in Northern Europe where small cat sailing thrives

another note- caution on overstressing the hardware on Dart 18s with larger sails in high wind conditions. Yes i have oversized side and forestays/shrouds(murreys said the ones they fashioned fpr me are suitable for a Stiletto size cat, and i always carry in rear hatch approximately 100 feet of amsteel rope which you can cut to size to replace a stay and actually is stronger - Ive sailed for weeks on amsteel forestay until i replaced stay- All Americas Cup craft only use it not stainless) but i had to replace chainplates/shroudplates/bowplates on one of my Dart 18s at the bow foreward! They are ugly, my friend Joe Pogostin made them up and they are 3 times as thick as the stock plates(its tricky to install you may lose inside of the hull fastener/ nut when removing discarded chain plate! remember metric hardware) ps mast base is referred to as mast foot by Brits wishbone is referred to as a spanner. Also i spray abundadant silicon on mast base and bottom of mast before raising mast, hobie and prindle sailors use silicon wafers but even when "molded" to fit these dont work with Dart 18 mast

I'm not sure what rigging size a Stiletto uses. Hobie 20 and 21 uses a 5/32" shroud; same as the Dart. It looks like there is already redundancy built in with the shroud diameter.
A larger sail will only increase loading on the rig if you can keep the boat upright in heavy winds. So unless you're doing twin trapeze with heavy crew on wings along with that extra sail area, I don't see the point in having rigging sized for a boat that's almost 3 times the weight.

Edited by jeff96 on Feb 02, 2020 - 03:49 PM.

Rigging oversized to cope with larger issue posted on Beachcats before maybe under mushroom anchors- we moor our cats on great south Bay in Fire Island National Seashore waters and are only permitted to use the beach we use to leave cats on 'back in the day' all year round, to put up & down sails and to let off or on "passengers/crew. Initionally the Park Rangers,who openly carry 357 magnums-we are in bathing or wet suits- punished us for leaving cats on public beach hardly used by anyone except other boater by literally cutting up one Nacra and cutting up masts taken off cats and left over bay dune, that partially washed away,to ride out hurricane Jose! Since then they have mellowed quite a bit and looked the other way for up to 2 weeks or more when i had to make repairs to my Dart and my Nacra 5.5SL (which I gave away in Sept) after monster freak summer storms , perhaps a tornado winds clocked at 79 mph(a close friend competitor swimmer drown!) pulled several cats and Flying Scotts from our moorings! After I oversized rigging my masts stopped coming down. I oversized on my Florida Dart as well since Lake Emerald rose 2 feet and beach there now under 18 inches of spring fed pure emerald blue water and now cat cant be left on beach there either. Global Warming?

IMHO:
upsizing your sails to deal with summertime doldrums may not be the best option.
in our area (same area the poster sails in): on typical summer days there is a light easterly breeze in the am which is met and overtaken by the sea-breeze around 1pm. Sailing in that transition time can be very painful as it is light wind and shifty.

If you wait till the sea-breeze you don't need oversized sails. and if you sail into the afternoon you may be sailing in 15 knots and you certainly don't need oversized sails

I think if you improve your weather-man skills you would be better served.

If you keep a close eye on the overall weather you will know when we are under a strong High pressure and that is when we will have almost no wind. If we aren't directly under a H, and it's not overcast ... there is a good chance for a seabreeze. esp in apr/may early june before the water catches up with the mid day air temps

I can only speak to a few days sailing in the Saint Petersburg area last November. There were a couple of days where we would have put up all the sail that we could and more. We also had a few days with a good sea breeze. My son is 180 lbs and was on the trapeze a bit but not really hanging out. With the two of us, we didn't use the reefing points, but I would have put in a reef if I was sailing solo. I think the OP was suggesting having a dedicated light air sail as well as his regular stock sail. Makes sense to me. The dart was built for heavy winds; in my opinion 15 knots is just starting to wake the beast. I do like to push the boat hard; it's going to depend on the sailor's preferences and experience.

yes having different sails for different weather is a great thing (i own 8 differently sized sails for my mystere's).
i have found this very beneficial to depower in higher wind days. But unless i am trying to "beat" my buddies to the next island, oversized sails aren't that powerful of a sailing aid

but what i am talking about is: we have (very) variable winds here in the summer

light to non existent in the am - building to "more than enough" in the afternoon on a typical summer day

having extra sq of sailarea will make you a little faster than without - but it doesn't make your boat easier to handle, or require less technique in light air

2 - 4 knots of air - it's all technique at those speeds -
no extra sail area is "needed" in 10-15 unless you want to push the limits of your sailing skills and rigging

I think most of the OP's issues can be overcome by timing his sailing to days that aren't controlled by high pressure overhead and sailing around the known wind habits

the Everglades Challenge this March. The rules require a reefing system for the main,

Curious about your system
how do you secure your main halyard after it is lowered?

I removed the halyard hook, put a block on the sail to give 2:1 purchase (to reduce mast compression and bend). The Spectra halyard is just cleated off near the base of the mast