First catamaran supercat 19?

I do it very similar to how Matt Miller shows in this video:
https://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=19910

I use the trap wires to stabilize, HOWEVER you must watch the tension or else this happens:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpfoaiiBA0M

At around 15:00 to 16:00 in video, they bust a trap wire. The mast on A H21SE is on a curved cross bar, like a 17 or 18, therefore when you raise it, it pulls on the trap lines way more than on a straight crossbar. You have to get all the rotation points on the same plane or have a way to adjust lines looser when you raise and tighter when you lower. Those guys looked like they had a tough time of it in the middle of a crowd, but saved it. There are a lot of learning points in that second video. Very valuable lessons.

First, get the SC19! It's a great boat! Inspect the standing rigging closely. Consider replacing all of it.
I've sailed with 3 SC19 owners. They all liked the reverse cowgirl trailering position. One guy used a gin pole with the block and tackle hitched to whatever fixed point he could find at the ramp. The other two went with the Iwo Jima walk up with a person out front on belay with a line on the forstay. All three used the trap wires secured to the ends of the front crossbar to arrest the sway. In all cases it was on the trailer in the ramp parking lot.
I sail an SC15. Also a great boat. I trail bows forward. I have a rear mast support that holds the mast about 3 feet off the stern crossbar when stored. Pinned to the step the masthead is about 8 feet off the ground. The front mast support telescopes up to about 10 feet off the ground. I run the winch strap over a bow roller at the top and rig a line to the masthead. I also use the trap wires to stop the sway. I hook them to the tie down straps on the front trailer crossbar.
I rig up and down single handed. An extra hand doesn't hurt though.
I got tired of having boat gear in the van and tied on the tramp so I built a box that holds it all and mounted it on the trailer tongue between the bows. I can open the lid with the boat on the trailer. It did up the tongue weight a bit. I had to move the axle forward.
Good luck with the SC19
GH
ps: I failed to mention, TIE DOWN THE STERN!
also I found it easier to attach/dis attach the two points of the forstay bridle at waist level as opposed to trying to connect the forstay to the bridle over head.
Oh yeah, mast rotation! Don't let the mast rotate when you are letting it down. I wrap the halyard around the mast in both directions to hold it dead for and aft when lowering.

Edited by gahamby on Dec 13, 2019 - 12:13 PM.

charlescarlis wrote:
I use the trap wires to stabilize, HOWEVER you must watch the tension or else this happens:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpfoaiiBA0M

At around 15:00 to 16:00 in video, they bust a trap wire. The mast on A H21SE is on a curved cross bar, like a 17 or 18, therefore when you raise it, it pulls on the trap lines way more than on a straight crossbar. You have to get all the rotation points on the same plane or have a way to adjust lines looser when you raise and tighter when you lower. Those guys looked like they had a tough time of it in the middle of a crowd, but saved it. There are a lot of learning points in that second video. Very valuable lessons.

I think it's pretty obvious that if you're paying attention to what you're doing instead of trying to be BeachScorcese, you can catch a problem like this before it happens.

We're getting off on a bit of a mast-stepping tangent here, but I'll add .25 . The situation with my H18 at the family cottage on Lake Muskoka is somewhat unique in that the only way into the water is through the woods and with a rather nasty drop, so I was forced to figure out how to raise the mast with the boat on the water. This sounds easy - until you try it and find that the boat bounces a lot while you're lifting (from the tramp), and that the first victim is the hinge casting. The solution was to point the boat at the boathouse dock, brace the bows against a couple of those big rubber trailer bow bumpers, and raise the mast with a winch on the boathouse. The winch was mounted up high enough that I didn't need a gin pole - just standing in the water and lifting the mast that first couple of feet was adequate. And I did the trap-lines-to-crossbeam thing - loosening them as it went up so as not to do the above-described stupid. That was easy enough, but followed by a very fiddly operation to bring together the forestay and furler with a small, high-ratio block and tackle. But it worked every time.

gahamby wrote:
I've sailed with 3 SC19 owners. They all liked the reverse cowgirl trailering position.

That statement is both weird and funny.

I sail an SC15. Also a great boat. I trail bows forward. I have a rear mast support that holds the mast about 3 feet off the stern crossbar when stored. Pinned to the step the masthead is about 8 feet off the ground. The front mast support telescopes up to about 10 feet off the ground. I run the winch strap over a bow roller at the top and rig a line to the masthead.

I think I follow, if by "front mast support" you mean "gin pole". The only part I don't get is how you get the winch line off the mast head after it's up.

also I found it easier to attach/dis attach the two points of the forstay bridle at waist level as opposed to trying to connect the forstay to the bridle over head.

Oh - that's cool. Funny I never considered it. Not just easier wrt height, but potentially less complicated than the common bridle-apex/furler/chainplate combination (e.g. H18).

Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 13, 2019 - 10:35 AM.

Geometrically speaking, I don't follow you.

[edit]

Oh, I get it. By trailering backwards the (tongue-mounted) mast stand already has it up at 20 degrees or something so it's not a dead lift.

Bingo

I use the trap wires to stabilize, HOWEVER you must watch the tension or else this happens:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpfoaiiBA0M

Yup, that is me coming over to help (be a 3rd person)

this issue is the loads get very high, any stay that is close to failure will be tested
gin poles are reliable and have been used for years but they are a pain to dial in, if you have curved beams they require on the fly adjustments of the guy lines and don't really solve all the issues (still need to be able to pin the forestay to the bridal - my ez mast gin pole didn't solve that last issue

in the end - for me the amount of time getting the jin pole rigged, the extra time it took to adjust the guy lines and the high loads are a bit freaky - in the end i just asked someone to pull on a safetly line from the front while i was on tramp

I have a 6'-0" front mast support that I rigged a telescoping extension into. This makes the angle of the lift line deep enough to lift the mast. It's like a static gin pole. The line from the masthead to the winch strap is a mast length bridle that I hook to the Aussie ring and haul up the mast with the main halyard. I use a sail track slug to keep it tight to the mast. I have to rig a trip line to the ring to pop it off the hook and haul it back down. The long bridle goes around and over all the standing rigging and hooks to the winch strap.

charlescarlis wrote:
Gonna use racing discipline? You're good and will have a blast.
Gonna get stoned and screw around on the lake? You're screwed.

I'm sorry, but I just can't let this false dichotomy slide. I understand what you're getting at, but there's a wide spectrum between. "Racing discipline" includes obsessive, anal-retentive tuning in order to win a race when the wind has dropped to 0.1 kt and arguing in protest committees when the wind is up. Not my idea of "good", only part of why I lost my taste for racing at an early age, and the hell with it. At the other end, "get[ting] stoned and screw[ing] around" is the kind of abject stupidity that often results in its practitioners ultimately assuming water temperature.

Personally, I'm one of those guys somewhere in the middle who just wants to get out there and hammer nails in challenging places and conditions and come back under my own steam in the right number of pieces.

Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 13, 2019 - 06:59 PM.

jonathan162 wrote: [quote=dssaak]Skip the gin pole and use a 6' step ladder if you are worried. It will raise the mast to an angle that you can crank up the mast straight from the mast stand winch; simple.

You worry about gin pole loads. I worry about loads on boats that weren't designed to carry "add on" equipment.

A stepladder? We don't all have a house and workshop on the shore. I don't have "home" water, and instead trailer from lake to lake behind a Subaru Outback. Where the hell am I going to carry a stepladder? The roof is already occupied with a box for sailing/camping gear and a kayak rack. Be realistic.

You haven't elaborated on your concern about "gin pole loads". I don't know yet how it's going to be to raise my SC19's mast, but in the unlikely event I find it to be too much, a gin pole will be the next thing I try. If for some reason you think that's an unsafe practice, don't toss around canards. Tell us what makes you nervous.Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 12, 2019 - 01:13 PM.

ladders are easy to carry and work well exactly as described. lots more people use this for beach cats vs gin poles (in my 20 years of beach cat sailing experience at least)

Gin pole loads - gin poles slowly move the mast from horizontal to vertical and about 70% of that time there are enormous loads on the mast hinge, the gin pole lines, and the trap lines that are used as a stabilizer. at any time ... any weakness in these locations will be tested. if you are solo and cranking on your winch you have no chance of "saving" your mast from crashing down.

MN3 wrote:
Gin pole loads - gin poles slowly move the mast from horizontal to vertical and about 70% of that time there are enormous loads on the mast hinge, the gin pole lines, and the trap lines that are used as a stabilizer. at any time ... any weakness in these locations will be tested. if you are solo and cranking on your winch you have no chance of "saving" your mast from crashing down.

I'm not looking to beat this to death, but there's no magic in it - this is the stuff of first-year statics.

The mast base is subjected to exactly the loads it was designed for. The trap lines are (unless something has been screwed up) subjected to almost no load at all, since the tension on them only increases if and when the mast goes off lateral center - exactly what they're there to prevent. The gin pole is a member in compression, so any reasonable extrusion will do. About all that leaves is the gin pole lines, so don't undersize them. That's all. Hardly something to be regarded with fear and apprehension.

Question, with the boat facing backwards, what is used to crank up the mast?

no crank possible in this configuration unless you create a gin pole setup that has a turning block on it so it can redirect under the tramp to the trailer winch (my 6.0 came like this)

boat backwards allows solo person to step but it's still very advantageous to have someone upfront for the connecting the forestay to the bridal/furler or even better to help with the mast stepping via a safety line on the forestay

without that second set of hands you either need a spin halyard tied to the bridal so when the mast is stepped you can secure the mast via the spin halyard until you get down from the tramp and walk to the front to secure the halyard to the bridal

OR
you need to carefully walk off the tramp forward while holding the [del]halyard[/del] forestay - this can be sketchy so it's best to make sure you have gravity workin in your favor (bows tilted down a bit)

Edited by MN3 on Dec 13, 2019 - 08:05 PM.

The mast base is subjected to exactly the loads it was designed for. The trap lines are (unless something has been screwed up) subjected to almost no load at all, since the tension on them only increases if and when the mast goes off lateral center - exactly what they're there to prevent

for sailors, or riggers whom have personally set up and dialed in a gin pole, it's not that crazy of a system if you know what you are doing. and all the gear is sound... and nothing goes wrong ( i help a pro rigger step (and sail) his f31r mast and it is always heart pounding for me)

for me: after sailing a hobie 16 for a few years and upping to an h18 with spreaders .. i got a ez-step system (dreaming of solo stepping/sailing). it took hours to set up and at several times the mast swung out and would have taken out a person or car window with just 2 clicks of the winch. i am surprised the bast base didn't fail. The guy i bought my 5.5 from took out his picture window setting up his supercat 17 gin pole when it swung wildly during set up.

in the video there were 2 adults and several things went wrong, mostly operator error. this is to be expected when people lack experience setting these up. no mast fell, people where around to help (now 3 adults), no big deal

around here LOTS of people get discouraged during and after a series of frustrating issues due to the complexity and overwhelming amount of systems to manage. ... and lack of experience/ knowledge

(these 2 people could have just both jumped on the tramp and both stepped the mast, or one on a line tied to the forestay ... a gin pole was not even needed)

this is a "big boy" boat.
i have been on a few supercats in 20 knots (17's and 19's, both with very experienced skippers). this is a wet Monster in 20 knots. if you don't have it trimmed correctly, you are gonna be in trouble and so will anybody / thing in your way.

------

this is in a thread where a 16 year old lazer/420 sailor (whom i am happy to hear) is asking about moving up into a much higher performance (aka fun) class of boat

i will stand by my initial suggestion
go simple and light .. increase performance as skills, desire and funds allow / push you - ymmv

--

Edited by MN3 on Dec 14, 2019 - 09:36 AM.

MN3 wrote:
in the video there were 2 adults and several things went wrong, mostly operator error. this is to be expected when people lack experience setting these up. no mast fell, people where around to help (now 3 adults), no big deal

around here LOTS of people get discouraged during and after a series of frustrating issues due to the complexity and overwhelming amount of systems to manage. ... and lack of experience/ knowledge

(these 2 people could have just both jumped on the tramp and both stepped the mast, or one on a line tied to the forestay ... a gin pole was not even needed)

Right on all fronts, but...

What I saw in that video was 100% bozo factor, the evidence being buddy on the ground wearing sailing gloves (when there was no rope to be pulled) and a GoPro (when he should have been concentrating on a critical and potentially hazardous task). His mind was on looking like a sailor for video. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with that, but you should save it for when you actually know what you're doing. Until then it's a dangerous distraction, as we saw here.

The short answer to all of this is sail with friends! You may sail solo but going with friends and other boats you always have help to rig your boat.

Personally, I would never free lift a mast with no assistance. To me, it is too easy to get things off line and into trouble and not worth the chance.

Light, fast, fun (and simple if you want it) .... F16. 240#s all up! I know it is not the boat for everyone but that is why I own four others. 😉

dssaak wrote: The short answer to all of this is sail with friends! You may sail solo but going with friends and other boats you always have help to rig your boat.

Personally, I would never free lift a mast with no assistance. To me, it is too easy to get things off line and into trouble and not worth the chance.

I'm not going to call this bad advice, but it doesn't work for me. I've spent much of my life as a solo sailor prowling the prairies and mountains for places where there usually aren't any people to help. So I came up free lifting the Mystere's mast and expect, even though I now have a family that's often with me, to figure out how to be self-sufficient with the SC19 as well. If that involves a gin pole or other special assistance, so be it. Do what I gotta do.

Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 14, 2019 - 02:46 PM.

I said I would never FREE LIFT a mast without someone helping. I have raised all my masts solo and hook up stays to pull them up and keep them in line while doing so.

I hope the "bad" reference didn't refer to sailing with friends. No offense but not sure how you could compare one to the other. Maybe I just have great friends.

Understood. I free lift the Mystere's because I learned to do it reliably alone and have never had a mishap over decades of sailing it. That's all.

And what I said was that sailing with friends is not bad advice. Shouldn't be any confusion there. I love sailing with other people, but have learned to be self-reliant when I'm alone.

What I saw in that video was 100% bozo factor, the evidence being buddy on the ground wearing sailing gloves (when there was no rope to be pulled) and a GoPro (when he should have been concentrating on a critical and potentially hazardous task). His mind was on looking like a sailor for video.

His mind was on looking like a sailor for video.

How do you know what his mind is on? Were you there? did you see him playing with his hair? was he fiddling with the camera?

BTW - the guy filming was the crew - not the skipper, not the boat owner. Crew who had sailed a few other times in his life.

I know this person, and I was there when this was filmed and I can tell you there was zero “hamming it up” to look like a sailor and the gloves were there to assist him rigging.

He put on a helmet cam (via a suggestion) so he can record the successful actions and failed actions of using a new gin pole on his new (to him) boat - as a new sailor it's a good thing to be able to review rigging and sailing - and you call him a bozo for it (and "a bit of a tosser")

And wearing gloves while rigging? maybe a wire rope on this 30 year old boat had a few burrs on it that he didn’t want to stick into his hand? Maybe there was a chance that something could go wrong and he may need to grab a rope or wire real quick? Maybe the black mast was very hot in the florida sun
I’ve been sailing since the 70’s. I put on gloves at times while stepping a mast too.
OH WAIT - I just realized I put my gloves on too in the video. hmmmmm boy those black masts get hot in the midday sun in florida

I saw your comment on his video on youtube (that he posted so others can learn from his mistakes) as well
“Hard not to think the star of our show is a bit of a tosser, with his gloves (and GoPro) on for stepping the mast.”
Jonathan Levine

Must be nice to be so perfect

Edited by MN3 on Dec 16, 2019 - 09:57 AM.

You don't have to like my take on it, but that's how I see it. I too have been sailing since the 70s (1970, actually, and cats since 1980 or so), and from all the years on all the boats in all the places with all the people and under all the conditions (including blizzards), I can say with a high degree of certainty that with boats of this scale, sailing gloves help sailing and hinder rigging (other than raising sails). And I noted the crew on the tramp was not wearing gloves.

So if they weren't there for function, another possibility is that they were there for show (for the benefit of himself and/or others).

And a headmounted camera is an objectively terrible way to record an operation like this, for all of the reasons familiar to anyone who's ever watched the resulting video. If he were serious about creating such documentation, the camera would have been on a tripod or held by a third party at a distance.

My perceptions and comments in this case are the simple product of experience, not of the perfection you kindly attribute to me, so I'm not going to apologize for them, nor get into a snarkfest with you, anonymous.

Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 16, 2019 - 12:08 PM.

My perceptions and comments in this case are the simple product of experience,

You calling him a bozo and a bit of a tosser is a product of you being an ass

again - gloves were for a very hot mast, and other hand hazards
video was to record the event for the skipper and others to learn from, not make a professional documentary

get over yourself - your input ridiculing a new sailor is uncalled for, not helpful in anyway and makes 1 person look like a jerk, and it's not the guy in the video

what value does calling him a tosser on his youtube page bring? you are mocking and ridiculing a new sailor for the sole purpose of degrading him and mocking him.

Poor form

Edited by MN3 on Dec 16, 2019 - 12:47 PM.

As I said, you may not like it, but I'm not calling you names either.

We're done here.

Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 16, 2019 - 02:06 PM.

As I said, you may not like it, but I'm not calling you names either.

Yup, your calling rookie cat sailors (whom happen to be my friends) names both here and on youtube - and I am calling you out on it.

It's uncalled for, it's not helpful, it's disrespectful and i wont sit here and let you do it without telling you it's not appreciated.

Edited by MN3 on Dec 16, 2019 - 02:39 PM.

Since you insist (and with apologies, particularly to the original poster asking about the SC19)...

In the case in question, my commenting on him gives him, and not you, the right to call me out. It's quite improper for you to presume you have his proxy in this matter.

What I'm really making a statement on here is something that you (given your presumed age) should well understand: That just because you can make a video and put it on the internet doesn't mean you should. Our society is under assault from uncounted millions of people who don't know what they're doing yet are compelled to share every minute of it with the world. In buddy's own words:

"We're new to it...so, I have a feeling we're going to makes plenty of mistakes...in fact...I'm quite sure of it!... this was something I felt...needed to be recorded and shared with the world."

Well, my friend, you're wrong. It doesn't. Record it if you wish, study it, learn from it. But unless and until you do a much better job at documenting and explaining, don't bother sharing it, because the only benefit will be to your ego, and you'll just be inviting judgment from heartless monsters like me. Should you become an actual catamaran instructional filmmaker, I eagerly look forward to seeing your work and learning from it. But in the meantime, until you kind of have a clue what you're doing, please just keep it to yourself.

If you don't really get what I'm talking about, I suggest Andrew Keen's "The Cult of the Amateur". I believe that his argument for manning the parapets against enthusiastically broadcast mediocrity is a sound one. ("You mean a billion Chinese aren't staying awake right now waiting for my picture of the most awesome avocado toast ever?")

And I don't have a lick of trouble being seen as argumentative (Q: Why is arguing with an engineer like wrestling with a pig? A: You're going to get dirty, you're going to lose, and the pig likes it.), but do us the favour of not quoting me out of context, as that's a transparent trick that fails to serve your argument.

Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 16, 2019 - 04:33 PM.

And we're off topic.

Hence my apology above.

In the case in question, my commenting on him gives him, and not you, the right to call me out. It's quite improper for you to presume you have his proxy in this matter.

Comments in public forums are invitations for all to respond. I don't need your permission, nor accept what you suggest are my rights.

Talk poorly (out of line) about a friend of mine who isn't around to defend himself and i can promise you i will chime in. Even if he wasn't a friend of mine, you have gone out of the way to ridicule a new sailor for wearing gloves while rigging and a hat camera, on multiple websites. this is a poor way to encourage new sailors and frankly - immature (given your presumed age)

What I'm really making a statement on here is something that you (given your presumed age) should well understand: That just because you can make a video and put it on the internet doesn't mean you should.

so multiple comments in multiple public websites, and now 4 paragraphs to express what your real issue is ... that he shouldn't be posting videos of his sailing experiences because he is a rookie with little experience.

I will stick with my original thought again
It's uncalled for, it's not helpful, it's disrespectful - and i will call you out every time

Thanks - ymmv

MN3

 

... that he shouldn't be posting videos of his sailing experiences because he is a rookie with little experience.

It's a little more subtle than that. "Rookie[s] with little experience" may well have something to say that we may benefit from hearing. It's about judging on a case-by-case basis whether or not they do, and my point is that - I think - in this case he doesn't, and instead is stroking his ego by looking sailory. A poster can avoid this potentially grossly-unfair judgment by being more discriminating in what (s)he posts for public consumption.

If he's on youtube, he's capable of being here. I invite him to come speak for himself.

Edited by jonathan162 on Dec 16, 2019 - 04:31 PM.

It's a little more subtle than that.

I lack the subtle gene and skillset

i may even be wrong, and have been wrong and apologized a million times for it. and that was a slow day. but i will stand up for publicly berating newbies for being green every time

but ... any further discussion should be taken off line
please PM me if you wish to continue

:prost:

To push it back on topic-while "incomplete" videos may not be professionally produced, they are VERY much welcomed in this digital age that is so very sparse on Hobie 21SE information. As a recent convert to sailing cats (1 year in) and having little other sources of information, just like the original poster, I study whatever I can find on-line. I'm just really, really lucky to have good friends first that also sail. The video is helpful. I'm a newish sailor, but have tons of experience in aerospace composites; I'll share what I know because that's what we do and what these forums and video posts are for. It's free speech-you have to discern for yourself no matter your age, (unfortunately ???). Most advice is good, I've seen.

The 19 is a big boat, big fun but equally bigger (well, different) methods of handling it. The OP needs to figure out personally if it fits his personality. Big means more work, but also higher rewards if not quite as many.

For what it is worth....

20 some years ago, I entered the Milt Ingram Race with a Hobie 16, with winds forecasted at over 30 knots, and ended up doing my return leg on a CG boat.

That was unquestionably a bozo move.

Since then, I've got countless channel crossings under my belt on boats including a Hobie 18, Prindle 19 (including two solo crossings), Mystere 6.0, and Catalina Monohulls from 30 to 50 ft.

I've written ezine stories and blogs on many of the trips. I still think one of the most valuable write ups for rookies was the detailed article on my "bozo move". There are lessons in there, particularly how the rules can change in righting a cat in high winds and heavy seas.

A story or video showing where something goes wrong can be just as valuable as one where everything goes right, sometimes even more so. I encourage the new folks to look for the lessons in these videos and leave the critiques of "ego" and "sailory" appearances to those who have the misguided opinion that someone posting their own screw ups are somehow stroking their own ego. And that is a bit ironic, now that I think about it.

What I like about the video is it is very real. This is cat sailing. A lot of videos are about fine tuning every little adjustment on a boat that is already rigged sitting pretty on the beach, then going out flying in ideal conditions. Showing all the little steps, and mis steps in real time can really help somebody decide if this for them. It was informative for me as I am not a gin pole user, and after this, I don't think its for me, really adds to set up time. I guess I may change my mind as I get older. Those guys stuck with it with a decent attitude and got on the water, all you can hope for.