Considering a beach cat...

MN3, have you ever sailed a G-Cat? It sure doesn't sound like it. I too carry kids on the front tramp all the time without any problems whatsoever.

jsb4g wrote: MN3, have you ever sailed a G-Cat? It sure doesn't sound like it. I too carry kids on the front tramp all the time without any problems whatsoever.

lol - yes. many times. I have several friends whom own them and i am good friends with the designer / manufacturer of the boat. I have personally helmed 5.0, 5.0 turbo & 5.7 and one of the only people in the world to have crewed on a power g-cat 36' as well (no sailing skills needed for that one).

Again, i never said it can't be done... i listed the reasons why it is not optimal above...

But questions for you:
Are they up front because there isn't room on the main tramp or just cause they think it's fun (which it can be)?

What size g-cat do you have? (5.0, 5.7, 21', 36'?)

How do you keep your jib from hitting your kids on the front tramp during tacking / gybing?

How much do your kids weigh?

Edited by MN3 on Jun 27, 2017 - 10:00 AM.

MN3 wrote: [quote=jsb4g]MN3, have you ever sailed a G-Cat? It sure doesn't sound like it. I too carry kids on the front tramp all the time without any problems whatsoever.

lol - yes. many times. I have several friends whom own them and i am good friends with the designer / manufacturer of the boat. I have personally helmed 5.0, 5.0 turbo & 5.7 and one of the only people in the world to have crewed on a power g-cat 36' as well (no sailing skills needed for that one).

Again, i never said it can't be done... i listed the reasons why it is not optimal above...

But questions for you:
Are they up front because there isn't room on the main tramp or just cause they think it's fun (which it can be)?

What size g-cat do you have? (5.0, 5.7, 21', 36'?)

How do you keep your jib from hitting your kids on the front tramp during tacking / gybing?

How much do your kids weigh?Edited by MN3 on Jun 27, 2017 - 10:00 AM.

To answer some of your questions, they alternate between the front and rear tramp depending on conditions, but spend most of their time on the front tramp. Sometimes, one stays up front and we have three people (myself included on the back). They like it up there because it is fun, there is more room, and because getting hit with a jib is far more comfortable than being hit with a boom (i have a 5.0). Actually, they the jib is a non-issue. When we tack, they duck under the jib. As far as what is optimal, that is in the eye of the beholder. I find it a lot more optimal with them up front than being in my way on the rear tramp. I've owned three boats. A prindle 16, a hobie 16, and a gcat 5. Now that I've had the front tramp, I could never go back to the prindle or hobie unless I were sailing with me and a crew of 1 and no one else. I don't race. Instead, I use my boat to spend the entire day on, often island hopping. We take food, drinks, beach toys, etc... I could do none of this without the front tramp. So to each his own, but it certainly isn't dangerous to have kids on the front tramp if you know what you are doing. Getting caught in an afternoon squall is dangerous regardless of front tramp use. I have never pitchpoled and don't go out in 20+ mph winds. My kids both swim very well, and I have taught them what to do in the event they go overboard. I also take a standard horizon hx870 and a waterproof smart phone that allows me to keep an eye on the weather.

What is your response to the G-Cat promotional documents posted on this website in the identification section? Some of your suggestions seem inconsistent with the things you are saying. A part of me is interested in trying a hobie getaway for even more room and comfort.

Edited by jsb4g on Jun 27, 2017 - 08:53 PM.

promotional documents...

Those have never been misleading ever right. I think the commercial for the pet rock made it sound dope as well

Pet Rocks
The best part is that it doesn't require food, water, or attention. I know I got sick of my pets dying all the time. It's already potty trained and if it happens to get dirty you can just wipe it off. Can be trained to do awesome tricks. "play dead" or "lay down". You can teach it to attack as well, does require the owner to participate a little. Comes in handy when you're in harms way. It can hold It's breathe forever and dry off quickly. So it will be safe at the beach or pool. Please note they swim to the bottom to find, be with, or a wait their rock friends.
How misleading is that?
sorry for the off topic.

They like it up there because it is fun, there is more room, and because getting hit with a jib is far more comfortable than being hit with a boom

Cool - i get it
you didn't say how much they weigh - the reason i asked was: it is incredibly different to be out with a few small kids on the front tramp (and getting caught in weather) vs having 2 adults (or three teen) up there or having 4 adults (close to 800 lbs) on a 5.0. also they must be pretty "small" to be able to fit under the jib.

And while we are talking about weight - I spoke with an engineer who owns a 5.0 and asked him about the volume and displacement. He said he worked up the numbers on our friends 5.7. He said "the hulls are aprox 16.5 cubic ft each - that means they would submerge with 1000lb of weight (each hull) - so put 800 lbs on a 5.0 and spring a leak (not uncommon on beach cats) and you may actually sink (i have seen this happen to a P18 with 4 onboard)

BTW if the boom is an issue, and performance is not the main objective - 5.0's do pretty well without the boom (you may need to add a multi-hole clew plate and add a big batten on the main but not expensive)

As far as what is optimal, that is in the eye of the beholder.

I stand by my 5 points - they are based in fact - not opinion
Having weight up there (on a front tramp) is not optimal for: light air handling, moves your CE forward which may cause lee or weather-helm, effects tacking and gybing, AND asking for pitchpole in heavy air (as this boat is already a bit prone to pitchpole)- and the more the weight the worse.

You may say it is optimal for room and kid smiles (i don't disagree) - but that is not what i am talking about - I am talking about boat handling and safety (using a worst case scenario - getting caught in weather - which is something that happens to many sailors despite their best efforts)

Getting caught in an afternoon squall is dangerous regardless of front tramp use.

for sure but MUCH worse with people upfront as your boat handling will be degraded.

but it certainly isn't dangerous to have kids on the front tramp if you know what you are doing

I would personally say: under light air conditions it is not a big deal, but has the potential to be dangerous in anything but light air (someone getting smacked with a jib clew or being beaten up by the sail or being thrown into the forestay or overboard during a bow-stuff). - and the more weight and/or the more forward the weight - the worse

What is your response to the G-Cat promotional documents posted on this website in the identification section? Some of your suggestions seem inconsistent with the things you are saying. A part of me is interested in trying a hobie getaway for even more room and comfort.

(haven't seen it) but there is no doubt that g-cats are a great fun and family cat that can also be piped up to be very performance tuned. Also knowing Hans, there may be a little bit of bias opinion in any G-cat marketing

Again - I never said it can't be done - i said it isn't optimal (for sailing) and down right dangerous to try and sail this boat with 800 lbs with real air -

We camp every year and grossly overload our cats
It seems every time it's time to go home, it is blowing 30
nothing quite as "exciting" as sailing mast only (or jib only) with all your camping gear, guitars, and dog (i now tow a jon boat so i don't have to overload my cat)

(edit)
Just found this on the site -

Is that what you are talking about? If so, i don't see anything about sailing with people on the front tramp - of course he does say "over 80sq ft for you and your family to enjoy" - he also mentions putting a tent on the front beam - none of which implies that is for sailing.

Edited by MN3 on Jun 28, 2017 - 10:06 AM.

How misleading is that?
sorry for the off topic.

Do they offer rescue pet rocks?
I'd rather get one that's around a pound

Interesting debate. Got to say that MN3 knows his stuff and always offers excellent advise on this site. He is usually spot on and seems to really enjoy sharing his wealth of knowledge with us in these forums for free. My advice would be to just take his advice into consideration.

I would like to add that Pet Rocks live forever by the way. 🙂

I figured out what you do with the kids. You just have to add some long boards to your cat.

you may want to make sure they are wearing their life jackets.

1.) I understand you are talking about achieving maximum speed and handling. I was not (and neither was the other guy). I was taking issue with your suggestion that the front tramp cannot be used for people safely.Ive done it alot without incident.
2.) I agree that you can't sail a boat with all the weight in the front and little weight in the back.
3.) The reason I made reference to the promotional material was that the front tramp was clearly intended to provide extra space for sailing families (which you picked up on).

Edited by jsb4g on Jun 29, 2017 - 04:50 PM.

I would like to add that Pet Rocks live forever by the way.

I am not able to make a commitment like that: how long do pebbles live?

I figured out what you do with the kids. You just have to add some long boards to your cat.

that's still to close for me, i would need a longer stick ! 🙂

I appreciate your offer, by all means, come on over and have a sail/rum with us in dunedin (or soda)

I will fight the urge to respond to all your points, i am certain you all got where i was going with them but i do want to make 1 point clear: I didn't mention speed. my comments are not about sailing faster or "better" - but were 100% about handling and safety, and in big air a lack of handling is unsafe

I am very happy to hear that you enjoy sailing your g-cat, esp with family and kids!

I guess your safety point is where people could be misled. You should qualify that by defining exactly when it is unsafe or less safe. 10+ knots, 15+ knots, 20+ knots? I do 15 knots all the time with people on front tramp. No big deal. I have no handling problems. I am not interested in sailing 20+ knots.

i stand by my original thesis: having anything more than a few pounds in front of your beam is not optimal for sailing performance

the only exception is if you are a skilled skipper and know weight placement well... in a very light air reach, deep downwind or in shallows and working hard to keep those long rudders out of shallows, sitting in the right spot in front of the beam can be a very good tactic in a race, but a terrible idea in med - heavy air - ymmv

Edited by MN3 on Jun 28, 2017 - 10:11 PM.

MN3 wrote: i stand by my original thesis: having anything more than a few pounds in front of your beam is not optimal for sailing performance

You may be right, the bows on this Getaway do look a little low.

You may be right, the bows on this Getaway do look a little low.

they are obviously on the cusp of: capsize, pitchpole or implosion from it too!

With regard to optimum weight distribution, there is no one size fit all. It depends on conditions, angle, etc... It is true that you never want the bulk of the weight up front, but it is also true, in certain conditions, that too much weight at the back of the boat is not "optimal" (your term) either. Do a search for backward or reverse pitchpole.

Edited by jsb4g on Jun 30, 2017 - 10:57 AM.

Prior to my reference to reverse pitch poles, I meant to say that too much weight at the very back of the boat is not "optimal" in all conditions.

I respectfully disagree -

backed off some of your original thoughts on that by using the edit feature

I have edited to make my points clearer and try to take emotion out of it - i haven't changed my toughts on any of my points

But i see you are quoting me - sure i would be happy to amend that statement:
MN3: "note about the front tramp - they are great for holding lunch and light gear but are not really appropriate for people in most conditions (new)besides putting a few munchkins up front and sailing slow in very light conditions, or trying to capsize"(/new)

Bottom line is that in 15 knots or less, there is no safety issue with having kids (not teenagers) on front tramp if the person in charge of the boat knows what he or she is doing and doesn't overload the front with more weight

All due respect, i disagree -
say your putting around with 4 people on your boat, at 8 knots and get a unforeseen (or seen but mishandled) gust of 50% (to 12 knot), if you have a few teenagers on the front tramp - your may find your boat stuffing its bows (which wouldn't have stuffed w/out 2 monkeys up there). Also made worse by your rudders not having the usual amount of "bite" nor response due to the CE being moved forward, (also possibly causeing wetherhelm that you don't normaly have, so if you drop the helm you may unexpectedly swerve) throwing crew into sail/forestay/pond - which would have otherwise been a 100% controllable puff without risk of stuffing your bows, or would have been much controllable and easier to recover from

I know that's a lot of "what if" - but i see them happen all the time (sans the people sailing with weight on their front tramp)
You mentioned sometimes raising your jib to accommodate crew is fine in light air - as you said previously - it effects the boat in a puff - yup it adds power to your cat by raising the sail - in less controllable way - just another reason why people up there isn't optimal imho

THIS IS PURE OPINION: please don't take it personally
Also having little kids (not sure how little is too little), or even small or big teens, or adults up there, with no hiking straps for feet to secure to the boat, and (in the case of kids) no adults around to grab a kid who may make a bad movement at the wrong time .... are also not the safest moves in my opinion..

- i've sailed with kids on my boat and i've crewed on many types of boats that had kids on them. Every time i felt the same (and it is proven true time and time again for me) - kids better be very well behaved and listen well - cause there are a couple dozen ways to get hurt on sailboat - i have dropped little kids (and their mothers) off after 15 minutes on my boat cause the kid wouldn't sit or listen - i am not suggesting your kids are not well behaved - i have no idea -

and disagree with telling anyone "there is no safety issue" - again, jib sheets and flying clew-plates at every tack and gybe, the occasional mis-cleated sheet and your jib can be flogging the heck out of bodies up there.

You can mitigate some issues, but IMHO your statement that there are "no safety concerns" is not correct and should not be disseminated

Know the risks .. then do as you feel is within your skill set and pain threshold, but don't pretend there aren't risks (yes i know, walking, driving, airplanes, volcanoes, aliens.. All risks -

With regard to optimum weight distribution, there is no one size fit all. It depends on conditions, angle, etc.

Good racers and knowledgeable sailors (trying to be fast and efficient ) move weight around the tramp and place it in the right spot for each condition

It is one of the skills used by winning racers and efficient sailors utilize.

Edited by MN3 on Jun 29, 2017 - 03:48 PM.

I have hundreds of hours with people on the front tramp without incident to back up my assertion concerning safety. I also question the honesty of several of your claims, and I happen to know for a fact that you have been dishonest about one of them.

Edited by jsb4g on Jun 30, 2017 - 10:58 AM.

I have hundreds of hours with people on the front tramp without incident to back up my assertion concerning safety. I also question the honest of several of your claims, and I happen to know for a fact that you have been dishonest about one of them.

cool - enjoy!

btw - i can't think of anything i could have said dishonestly, and i am a pretty honest person, so feel free to call it out - i'm curious

Edited by MN3 on Jun 29, 2017 - 04:59 PM.

Wow, i am sorry for starting this! While there is something to learn here I still believe the risks are minimal, much more so than other water activities people partake in on a regular basis. I teach safety for a living and have for a long time. I take more precautions with my family than most and I pride myself on my knowledge and the education I provide to both children and adults. While I am an adventurous person and love a good bit of adrenaline I never approach any adventure haphazardly, actually quite the opposite. I have done things far more dangerous than cat sailing, some of it rescuing people that do not take such precautions. As far as my children, they learned to swim very young, my older daughter is an active lifeguard, my younger daughter can probably tread water side by side with the best swimmers around. No one goes out on my boats without safety devices, being educated and following rules. While I don't consider myself a great swimmer I have been boating well over 30 years, paddled class 5 rapids around the country, and additionally am a certified advanced EMT.
I do believe MN3 makes some very good points and maybe I should not argue the point, as many likely will not take the precautions or the time to educate themselves on both the boat handling skills and life safety skills. For me, I quickly understood how this boat handles, the balance point for optimal safety (not performance) and the limitations of the design through mechanics. Utilizing these learned points I will say that there certainly can be a minimal range between safe amd suddenly in trouble, but that is over certain wind speeds only.
Be safe out there!

Wow, i am sorry for starting this!

Don't be sorry - I'm not

I am always up for a good debate - helps to correct or reinforce my knowledge and knowledge and critical thinking for others.

I am curious why he would think i would lie about any of these things, i have nothing to gain by from it so i look forward to him explaining his accusations - either way doesn't really matter to me if he believes me or not ...

Hope you got something out of this discussion

I dont want to get into more back and forth with you, so I will leave it at this: in 4,403 posts (as of now), there is a lot of material from which to find inconsistent statements you have made.

Edited by jsb4g on Jun 30, 2017 - 10:59 AM.

I dont want to get into more back and forth with you, so I will leave it at this: in 4,403 posts (as of now), there is a lot of material from which to find inconsistent statements you have made. I found another one when looking through them last night.

I also question the honest of several of your claims, and I happen to know for a fact that you have been dishonest about one of them.

You call me out and say i lie but you wont back that up = laughable

you looked through my 4400 posts and founds some "inconsistencies" ? = ridiculous
of course my opinions and methods have changed in my 40 years of sailing and 19 years of owning beach cats

i again challenge you to point out where i have been "caught" by you in a lie

Edited by MN3 on Jun 30, 2017 - 09:07 AM.

Don't like the word "inconsistencies"? Ok, I will be more blunt: Going through a few of your posts over the last few years, I was quickly able to determine you made up facts to support your argument in this thread. Oh, and I never said looked through 4400 posts....I guess that is just something else you made up to make yourself appear more reasonable and make me appear less reasonable.

Edited by jsb4g on Jun 30, 2017 - 10:59 AM.

h, and I never said looked through 4400 posts....

" in 4,403 posts (as of now), there is a lot of material from which to find inconsistent "

I was quickly able to determine you made up facts to support your argument in this thread.

Prove it smart guy

you have challenged everything i said, suggested i had never sailed a g-cat, tried to tell me i have waffled on my statements, and now call me a lair without the balls to back it up ...

carry on

Edited by MN3 on Jun 30, 2017 - 10:26 AM.

.I guess that is just something else you made up to make yourself appear more reasonable and make me appear less reasonable.

No need for me to try and make you look the fool - your doing it to yourself with every word

esp the bad advice you have stated - "Bottom line is that in 15 knots or less, there is no safety issue with having kids (not teenagers) on front tramp" and "I meant to say that too much weight at the very back of the boat is not "optimal" in all conditions."