How is it that everyone talks about early boats having bendy masts and some later ones having stiffer ones, (the 80-90s boats) but when I email NACRA they say they only ever had 1 extrusion for all the boats of that era and that the new extrusion is only new because they lost the tooling for the old one and that the new extrusion is made to be as similar to the old one as they could..
According to them all the masts made for the 5.2, 5.5, 5.8 etc were all the same.
I don't exactly have a fleet of different NACRAs to go shake the masts on. Anyone have some real world experience on this other than the internet rumor mill?
Edited by tamumpower1 on May 15, 2017 - 04:49 PM.
Hi Matt,
It is common knowledge in sailing that everything is stiffer and stronger when it is newer. But, it often generates a ton of discussion whenever there is any sort of change by the manufacturer.
One person may have a lightly used older version of whatever and achieve as good or even better performance in the short term against whatever the new thing is. But sometimes manufacturers "upgrades" are for better longevity at a minor expense of performance.
There are few cases where older is better in sailing and none I can think of over a significant amount of time.
Do you know of any?
Brad in Jax
Edited by bradinjax on May 15, 2017 - 02:00 AM.
New masts, specially the wing masts can be pretty bendy and "soft". I have never heard of an older Nacra mast considered stiffer or softer.
Whats at play here is probably just someones seat of the pants observations taken as fact and it continues online.
No direct experience with Nacra masts on this topic, but have experienced a difference with other masts of similar age to each other and built "identically".
Had two h16s of same age (1 year apart) and each had distinctly different bend characteristics.
I chocked it up to differences in the manufacturing process while extruded. Speed of extrusion, and possible differences in aluminum material content.
i don't know about different nacra masts, but i certainly know there are large differences of rigidity between brands - i.e. hobie vs mystere
MN3
MN3 wrote: i don't know about different nacra masts, but i certainly know there are large differences of rigidity between brands - i.e. hobie vs mystere
Yea my H18 masts are like viagra ragers compared to the 90 year old limp noodle that is my nacra mast.
how long have you had the 18square?
ever use it?
MN3
MN3 wrote: how long have you had the 18square?
ever use it?
2 weeks. Now that the mug race is over I'm in the middle of a full strip/repaint/rebuild of the whole thing. It didn't need it at all, boat is dang near 95%, but I have to be able to trust every bolt and rivet in the thing so the only way to do that is to rebuild it myself. That way if I have to throw it into mug race conditions I know it wont fall apart on me.
cool
buy it locally?
paint? not gelcoat?
what type?
MN3
MN3 wrote: cool
buy it locally?
paint? not gelcoat?
what type?
Nah I had it delivered from Houston. The previous owner was a big racer so had stripped the gelcoat and done a coat of imron on it to save 10-15lbs. But that was a long time ago and the bottom could use some paint so I'm just gonna sand it down a reasonable amount and spray a coat or 2 of enamel. I have a hvlp setup so can get a pretty even coat. I've got a lime green color I mixed in the garage last night that's looking pretty fun. I think I'll go with that.
No point in going with awlcraft or anything like that around here. I'd have that sanded off in one season lol. To do gelcoat on an entire hull would be difficult to avoid sagging and since it already doesn't have any anyway I don't see the point. I can spray touch up at will anyway. Might even do a thin layer of resin just on the bottom for sand resistance. That being said the boat is pretty dang fragile. 375lbs all up. I might pull it up on an island a little but I can't abuse it like the H18.
I just want some photos of me trapped out flying a hull 11 feet in the air, then I can retire it...
No point in going with awlcraft or anything like that around here.
why do you say that? the Awlgrip on my 6.0 is still perfect (sans the areas where i have scrapped it off with poor handling / rubbing / demasting
The one thing i do not like about my painted cat is: it acts like an etch-a-sketch and every scratch is white, on a grey boat... sticks out a lot (tons to me).
PS i hope you have the correct gear for sanding imron - pretty nasty stuff
MN3
I'm right with you. It wouldn't be horrible, I just feel better beach sanding off a 40 buck paint job the first season than stepping up to the expensive stuff right out the gate. Pretty much my whole life is fixing/rebuilding stuff so it won't break my heart if I have to sand it off and use something higher quality next year.
Yea I don't plan to sand it too much really. I do have some breathing gear. I'm going to sorta treat it like my primer to help level the hulls. I just feel bad not taking a little off in the hopes of saving a few pounds on my race boat lol.
Why are you beach launching and landing your 18 square? Its not a hobie cat, the fiberglass on the bottom is quite thin and you'll wear through this in no time. Use a quality paint and beach wheels.
I have beach wheels for it. The dude made them out of ATV wheels. They are the most beast beach wheels you've ever seen lol. But we stop on islands around here. Just lifting and setting the bows on the edge of the sand. It will be fine for that. That's why I'm gonna put a little extra paint, maybe some resin protection down there. I didn't mean I'm gonna come full speed kamikazi at the beach.
I know some people that have had the enamel paints last quite awhile on fiberglass boats. It's not talked about on the internet as much because most people don't do paint themselves but it's more common than people think. It's what I use on my rudders and it took 2 seasons of shallows to take it off so should be no worries.
I have beach wheels for it. The dude made them out of ATV wheels. They are the most beast beach wheels you've ever seen lol. But we stop on islands around here. Just lifting and setting the bows on the edge of the sand. It will be fine for that. That's why I'm gonna put a little extra paint, maybe some resin protection down there. I didn't mean I'm gonna come full speed kamikazi at the beach.
Our beach wheels are also atv rim/tires (but i get the feeling yours are a little more monsta atv)
Ron had CF on his hull "floors" didn't last too long
i suggested he get some kevlar down there, put a strip or 2 under the gelcoat - he didn't want to work with kevlar (too hard to cut) lol
MN3
I gotta glass up some cradles for them. I got another set with the boat that isn't connected by a bar. It's like an individual pair of wheels for each hull. More useful for setting the boat up I'd figure but still kinda cool. Once I sail it a few times I'll get to work welding up a tilt trailer for around town.
Edited by tamumpower1 on May 15, 2017 - 04:44 PM.
11' beams?
Please call me when your going to the beach so i can be no where's near you on that bridge with 11' wide boat going over that crest
I drove a 10' one on a flat trailer once ... will never again
MN3
ha no right now it doesn't trailer flat. Its a take down setup only. That's why I want a tilt trailer for going around town. Should be able to rig one up for like 200 bucks of steel on top of the existing trailer frame.
Once setup it's a thing of beauty though...
Edited by tamumpower1 on May 15, 2017 - 04:58 PM.
Tis a beast!
funny - a boat built for a single sailor but can fit 18
love the traveler track!
Mike Krantz has a killer tilt trailer with gas struts that can be lifted/lowered with one hand... (for his carbon20)
there is a thead somewhere (edit - found it)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PsAZADGRm0
Edited by MN3 on May 15, 2017 - 04:06 PM.
MN3
Dang thats pretty sweet. Not sure where to get struts that long. Might be something I mess with for fun.
and yea the previous owner(owned it since 84) is a machinist and actually made the whole setup. The traveler is machined out of a solid piece of aluminum and has little replaceable ball bearings on it. Pretty slick actually. Then he took the old harken car and cut a piece of the old traveler off and used it for the outhaul. It's the most high load outhaul car you've ever seen!
Dang thats pretty sweet. Not sure where to get struts that long. Might be something I mess with for fun.
if you read the post he tells exactly where he got the struts
he told them the size and weight of his rig and they told him which struts to order
Rocco made a tilt trailer a few years ago - similar idea but no where's as nice an execution
his was built too high off the ground it it was a bear to load and unload - and his struts were not quite enough ... so in the end it was not great - a large part of why he stopped sailing his mystere 6.0 xl
MN3
That is a good looking boat. With a modern square top, it would be killer.
Tilt trailers are all a pain in the rear. Need to counterweight the trailer which makes them heavy.
I'd be hesitant to do much to that boat, she looks in fine shape. If you just lift the bows up onto the beach there shouldn't be much wear. Maybe carry a par of throwable PFD's, these make good padding. Kevlar is very abrasion resistant but there are a lot of other issues, a big one is that paint doesn't want to stick to it.
Not sure who you emailed within Nacra, but I didn't hear from you.
I'm guessing that what you heard about being one mast on those boats is right. However, over 40 years some things are bound to change in production.
Also you have to remember the company was purchased in 2007 and we no longer have anyone that was involved with the company prior to 10 years ago. A lot of our information was lost in the great minds of some of our predecessors.
We have a handful of extrusions in our U.S. inventory that we're not even sure what they are.
We're doing our best to support the older boats but it's really quite difficult! There was no internet databases back then that we can still access and most of the paper has been lost.
Kevlar is very abrasion resistant but there are a lot of other issues, a big one is that paint doesn't want to stick to it.
could be buried under a few layers of gelcoat - correct?
MN3
samc99us wrote: That is a good looking boat. With a modern square top, it would be killer.
Tilt trailers are all a pain in the rear. Need to counterweight the trailer which makes them heavy.
I'd be hesitant to do much to that boat, she looks in fine shape. If you just lift the bows up onto the beach there shouldn't be much wear. Maybe carry a par of throwable PFD's, these make good padding. Kevlar is very abrasion resistant but there are a lot of other issues, a big one is that paint doesn't want to stick to it.
Yea I'm with you. I think I'm going to take the easy route for now and just re blast paint on it as needed before getting into exotic materials. I'm pretty good about knowing the shallows here locally and I doubt the hulls will ever get sanded too much. I've already stripped the gelcoat off the boards and rudders and filled them back to new and put a few extra layers of sacrificial glass on the tips for when they eventually carve a little sand.
nacrasailing wrote: Not sure who you emailed within Nacra, but I didn't hear from you.
I'm guessing that what you heard about being one mast on those boats is right. However, over 40 years some things are bound to change in production.
Also you have to remember the company was purchased in 2007 and we no longer have anyone that was involved with the company prior to 10 years ago. A lot of our information was lost in the great minds of some of our predecessors.
We have a handful of extrusions in our U.S. inventory that we're not even sure what they are.
We're doing our best to support the older boats but it's really quite difficult! There was no internet databases back then that we can still access and most of the paper has been lost.
Ah, that would explain the crap shoot on the reliability of old information. I'm not sure who emailed me, I might have saved it, not sure. My only reason for the whole thing was that I for sure have a floppy noodle mast and had hopes of putting my 18' sized spin setup over on it but with the mast the way it is it's mega questionable. To get a stiffer mast I'll probably have to retrofit over something from a modern boat instead of looking for a stiff older era mast and then having to lengthen it for the square. The spin idea is on hold for now. Not really in the mood of doubling the cost of the boat just for a newish mast anyway.
Back during the aluminum Tornado mast days, because of the variance inherit in the extrusions, teams would buy multiple masts (like 10) just to get one that they liked. Even though they all came from the same place, some were stiffer or more flexible than others; they even needed to attach corrector weights to the tip if they came out too light. Granted, those masts were made for a higher performance boat, and likely to a smaller safety margin than a typical consumer boat; therefore the extrusion is probably thinner than what Nacra or Hobie would sell and variations is the extrusion thickness and grain structure of the metal would be more noticeable. I don't have any data to support this, just a hunch.
Also, don't forget that different alloys have different properties and the base metal could have slight variations from job to job. Additionally, as aluminum ages, it's structure and properties change; assuming I remember correctly, it will get harder, but more brittle over time. Another guess would also be variations in the extrusions produced as the tooling ages and wears.
When the tornado design was implemented and people were backyard building them who was the official mast supplier since there wasn't a single OEM making the actual boats? I could put a tornado mast on this boat it would just be a few inches short. Most of the squares ended up with 31-33 footers instead of the stock 30' one. If I was gonna put a different one I'd probably go even taller in case I make a new higher aspect main to play with. Kinda hilarious I can put a different design main/mast etc and not take any score penalty. I'm sure people would love it if I show up with a wing mast that's still 18 square meters to a mixed fleet race haha
Both Marstrom and Sailspar built masts for the Tornado in Aluminum ( http://www.aita.asn.au/index.php/tornado-info/tornado-classic/tornado-classic-tuning-guides/15-the-classic-tornado-guide)
If you are series about this, call Matt McDonald @ Falcon Marine, he may still have some blank wing mast extrusions available. Nacra may also be able to sell you an Infusion mast in the 32' range, as they use that extrusion (or something very similar, may be different alloy or internal reinforcements) for refitting Nacra Inter 20's and some of their cruising range. There are some other F18 rigs available (AHPC, Exploder, Cirrus) that would also fit your boat but they are a tiny bit shy of 30'. Then you move into carbon rigs, which are nice, but even a fully kitted aluminum wing mast is going to be $2-$3k, which is the base price of a blank carbon wing mast tube.
Edited by samc99us on May 16, 2017 - 10:57 AM.
I bought the struts from bansbach.com. I told them how much I needed to lift and sent them a diagram of the platform. They spec'd out the struts, and told me exactly where to mount them. I could tilt the F20c with one hand.
I think I paid around $200 for the pair of struts.
Nice link to the Australian site. This one guy on there is my hero with the boat name. I might have to copy that haha.
I guess I'll look out for some wrecked or parted out boats and see if I can get a stick on the cheap. I don't really need it, or at least know I need it yet, until I sail the boat and get a feel for how it handles. I can slap my spin on it since its a little bit smaller than the F18 spins and see how the mast looks in light air and just baby it. Might be ok. I know a guy that won a few national events back in the 80s with the noodle mast and he played around with a spin on it and said it was fine for medium air so we'll see. I'm going to convert it to swept spreaders and prebend so that should help the noodle flop at least a bit.
mikekrantz wrote: I bought the struts from bansbach.com. I told them how much I needed to lift and sent them a diagram of the platform. They spec'd out the struts, and told me exactly where to mount them. I could tilt the F20c with one hand.
I think I paid around $200 for the pair of struts.
Thanks, when I get it built up I'll see what I want to do with it. I might end up using the mast support as a crane arm since I have an extra crank winch and just manually lift the frame up. The shock idea is cooler though.