What are the best cats for very long distance racing?

tumbolo wrote: there are no rules except the boat cannot be fitted with a motor.

Then it is AC72 😀

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjERHJUTLh4

If you flexible on your criteria, that is 😉

That's a lot of flex on the $6k budget

I think you want to look for a 20' boat, Nacra 6.0, Supercat 20, Mystere 6.0 or Tornado. I've seen all of those boats for $6K or less, in serviceable condition. Reefing could be engineered on any of these three. The Nacra and T might go to weather, and do light air a bit better than the SC. The SC probably has the most buoyancy/load capacity of the 3, pretty solid construction with a well engineered/durable rudder system. The N has an 8'6" beam, the T is 10', the SC12', with attendant advantages and disadvantages of each width. I've no direct experience with the Mystere, but I think it's well regarded. It might be the most scarce, and have the least parts availablility.

Any of these boats for under $6K is gonna be 20 to 30 yrs old, and thus will need to gone over meticulously for what you want to do. Which sounds grand!

Dave

I-20 or Nacra 6.0 w/spin

Let me surprise everyone and suggest getting a Hobie 21 SE. The H21 has a very stable "footprint", comfortable wing seats, can carry about whatever crew or gear you need and spring loaded retactable dagger boards.

For long distance sailing, you really want a comfortable boat and the wing seats will give you the best ride. 😉

Yeah, the H21 might be a wonderful choice for your needs, but start looking now! Not a lot of them, and finding one under $6k will be tough. The wings would be a great addition for comfort. With the N/I 20s, there are more of them to choose from, but those under your limit will need close inspection. You could also consider Hobie 20 Miracles.

I'm a bit concerned about your budget for the boat. I think you can find a decent one of these twenty footers we've suggested for $6K, but I think you're going to need to spend additional money to really put them in top condition for distance ocean sailing. New standing rigging would be high on my list, and the sails need to be very sound/near new.

A spin would be a great addition, std on the N/I20, but not a lot of these other $6K boats will have one. And adding it would be a minimum of around $2K if you're a good scrounge.

Watch the classifieds here, as well as Catsailor.com, and CL. And return here with questions and updates, you've got us interested now.

Edited by davefarmer on Jan 18, 2015 - 08:04 AM.

tumbolo wrote: Also, if anybody knows of boats for sale in the pacific NW or British Columbia let me know.

BC cat market is very tight. There is always an older Hobie 16 for sale, but if you hunting for a specific boat, it may take you a year or two to get it.

Make sure to keep your eye on

CL

http://www.kijiji.ca/
http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=52

and If you willing to drive, California may be a better bet.

Edited by jackb on Jan 18, 2015 - 02:34 PM.

I believe a buddy of mine is selling his 2007 Hobie miracle.... It's Phil and Beverly Collins nationals champion Hobie 20. As you can expect, it's prob the newest and best condition Hobie 20 on earth, as well as the fastest. Has TONs of extras and looks like new. Think he's asking $5500 or $6k

Thanks for all the advice. It sounds like a boat in the 20ft range is the way to go. The 6k budget can be a little flexible depending on how far I have to transport it back home to BC, so a somewhat local boat would be nice. But, yeah Cali, Ontario and even Texas is possible. Florida is a bit far.

There is a Nacra 570 for sale close by for a good price, but I have doubts about the suitability... Maybe a little small, although I read the volume is comparable to boats a little larger. But my main concern would be the lack of boards. How much does a skeg boat suffer upwind, i.e. would I have a big loss in upwind VMG?

So I think the key will be finding the right platform and then modifying it. Fabricating custom wings, adding a spin kit if needed, etc. From the looks of it, A spin kit could be made from a carbon windsurfing mast and a few bits here and there, meaning the main cost would be a used spi. Am I missing something here?

The hobie 21 may be getting a bit heavy for serious rowing...

I believe a buddy of mine is selling his 2007 Hobie miracle....

Where is this boat located?

http://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/catamarans-for-sale/p13696-mystere-6m-2c-1999.html

This one is in Canada

The Hobie miracle 20 is about 45 min south of Memphis TN. For what it's worth, Hobie 18 magnum wings can be installed on a Hobie 20. I did it to mine. Required three hours of time plus the cost of used wings to add them. Rides like a fast Cadillac with tons of room. Weighs 450# w wings before people but its very buoyant and forgiving, carries weight well and likes to be pushed hard. I'd think you'd have to spend at least $15k or more to get a better 20 footer less than 10 years old.
It is a long way away from you but perhaps someone would drive it up to you for a certain price? Uship perhaps?

Edited by fxloop on Jan 19, 2015 - 05:47 AM.

Spins can be added to any of these boats with a modest amount of effort, with good results. I've used carbon windsurf masts for the pole numerous times, for a 20' boat you need about 13' or more, so I generally mate two lower mast sections. Used spins are available, fewer from 20 footers than the more common F18s, but they're out there. You'd like to find one fairly lightly used, they definitely have a limited life. A quality snuffer is about $500, and not real easy to fabricate cheaply. Maybe you can deck launch for your needs. Hlyd, sheets, blks and cleat will be another two to three hundred, depending on how much you can find used.

Dave

mystere 6.0 xl
10' beams with wings

extra width for extra stability, wings for area to sleep/stow gear

mystere is much more flexible in shallows with it's center boards (vs dagger boards all the other 20' cats have)

word to the wise....
start sailing a cat as soon as possible, they handle differently than monohulls and you will need to learn the differences and how to trap out

PS what is this race?
how can a kayak ever compete with a catamaran without any handycaps?

tumbolo wrote: - light enough to be rowed, possibly for days on end.

Are you serious about this requirement? If so, then I think all beach cats are out. Rowing one of these boats really doesn't work well at all - there is no comfortable place to sit and paddle, the boats are really too wide for oars (not to mention there isn't really any good place to store the oars), and rowing 400-500lbs of boat and equipment is going to be exhausting. The good news is that these boats are so efficient that generally speaking, any wind over about 3 to 5mph sailing the boat is going to be much faster than anything being rowed.

sm

MN3 wrote: PS what is this race?
how can a kayak ever compete with a catamaran without any handycaps?

Its the R2K race, its a 900mile race to Alaska. Its totally open for rules there are several farrier type trimarans and at least one 30' Cat that I know of going for the line honors, I think it should be considered more of an adventure for most of the competitors.

Dogboy wrote: [quote=tumbolo]- light enough to be rowed, possibly for days on end.

Are you serious about this requirement? If so, then I think all beach cats are out. Rowing one of these boats really doesn't work well at all - there is no comfortable place to sit and paddle, the boats are really too wide for oars (not to mention there isn't really any good place to store the oars), and rowing 400-500lbs of boat and equipment is going to be exhausting. The good news is that these boats are so efficient that generally speaking, any wind over about 3 to 5mph sailing the boat is going to be much faster than anything being rowed.

sm

I agree, I cant think of any way to make rowing a cat tolerable for very long.

carolinacatamarans wrote: I agree, I cant think of any way to make rowing a cat tolerable for very long.

I have thought about this while considering an everglades challenge event. I have not implemented it but if I were to try to row a cat this would be my starting point.

I would add a tang to the front to for the mast about 10-12 feet up which would act as attachment point for a secondary trapeeze setup. Possibly an adjustable one. Foot straps would be added to the front of the front cross member centered about the mast. Removable oarlock mounts would be fiberglassed into the hulls forward of the front crossbar to permit a good purchase for rowing. One would row from trap harness over open water in front of the mast . Oars would be 8 - 10 ft long or more and would have to be modular for storage under the tramp or between the hulls in front of the tramp. This configuration would make the rowing effort as efficient as possible, keep the bows down to help the boat track better, and minimize the impact to sailing.

Yep, you guessed it. Race to Alaska, which leads to the need of moving the boat in no wind. In that area in June there can definitely be times of no wind, and this could be the advantage of a beach cat over some of the other bigger sailboats. I haven't quite got it figured out, but I think rowing it can be done (I like the idea above) In times of no wind I can scull my 27ft aluminum sloop with a sculling oar, so I should be able to move a boat 12 times lighter... Alternatively I have been thinking of a pedaling station connected to a flexible drive shaft and a propeller... I think that it needs to be able to be done by one person so that the crew can switch off and get rest. More ideas are welcome!

So I still have the question of how much loss in upwind VMG will a skeg boat like a Nacra 570 have compared to a boat with boards???

I can get my Hobie 16 to go a good bit faster (maybe 3 mph tops) just pumping the rudder back and forth, with the blades about halfway up, than I ever could with a paddle. The most I have ever done is a whole hour sculling back to the marina when the wind died and the sun went down. Any longer would require taking turns, and requires being in good physical shape. I was sore for several days after.

I think it would be safe to say that the 570 will not go upwind as well as a daggerboard boat, and that it's going to be hard to quantify. But coupled with it's lower load carrying capability, it wouldn't be my first choice.

Any chance you could adapt Hobies pedal propulsion system to a cat?

Are you anticipating shallow water needs?

No shallow water needs, although there is a real possibility of hitting deadheads (floating logs just under the surface) while sailing at night, which I have done with quite a few keel boats in the area.

I love the pedal power idea! I have been looking into it and it seems I could get a crank and connect it to a right angle gearbox, then attach a flexible driveshaft and propeller. Maybe the whole thing could pivot into and out of the water when needed.

I am just about to sell my 27ft aluminum sloop that I single handed to Australia, then I'm headed back home to find a cat!

info on the everglades challenge if anyone is interested.

the Everglades Challenge is an unsupported, expedition style adventure race for kayaks, canoes, and small boats. The distance is roughly 300 nautical miles depending on your course selection. There is a time limit of 8 days or less. Your safety and well being are completely up to you. - http://www.watertribe.com/events/evergladeschallenge/

I go down every year to the start of the race on prep day and check out all the vessels. neat stuff

Edited by MN3 on Jan 26, 2015 - 08:18 AM.

I haven't quite got it figured out, but I think rowing it can be done

from time to time, I paddle my boat a few miles to my home beach after a storm sucks out all the wind and i dont feel like waiting a few hours for a knot or 2 to restart

It sucks but is do-able.
I sit on a bow, forward of the beam and i use my canoe paddle (that i store on my tramp, at the rear beam).

the trick is to get the tiller to stand still and track straight. this can be done with line or bungee (but risky so have a good quick release knot in place).

I also have a small collapsible paddle in my front bow incase i have crew onboard. The boat is pretty efficient with crew helping paddle and steer (one stays forward / one aft).

Sitting like that hurts after a while, perhaps a SUP paddle would be good here - exp if you have wings and you have a place to stow it (under a wing)

I can get my Hobie 16 to go a good bit faster (maybe 3 mph tops) just pumping the rudder back and forth, with the blades about halfway up, than I ever could with a paddle. The most I have ever done is a whole hour sculling back to the marina when the wind died and the sun went down. Any longer would require taking turns, and requires being in good physical shape. I was sore for several days after.

I would not do this on my boat
this adds stress to under-supported areas of your rudders and risk breaking in 1/2 or breaking at the head. I went through many sets of stock hobie 16 rudders
this also adds stress to unsupported parts of your transum risking hull cracking and hull failure
this will add stress to all attachment hardware and boat and will worm out fiberglass/epoxy holes,rivets,bolts, etc

all this wair-and-tair on a boat can be eliminated with a paddle tied to the side of your tramp or across a beam/mast

Edited by MN3 on Jan 26, 2015 - 08:33 AM.

Good to know. I wondered about that and so have tried to limit how much I use that. I'll definitely work much harder in the future to make sure I don't have to do that.

Wow
So many things to consider for this event. I'd stay away from a peddle prop solution. Propeller propulsion requires so many critical considerations to do it right you'd need an engineer. Paddling seems like a much easier and perhaps more efficient solution anyway. The issue of one person motivating the boat while the other rests may not be better than two working together. Consider the dead weight the resting party becomes.
What is the probability that both of you work together until enough wind comes along when one can rest? Beach cats need only the slightest winds to far outpace any rowing/peddling effort. If you both row together, can you set up a sculling arrangement taking advantage of leg, back and arm muscles thus spreading out the work load and again decreasing the amount of dead weight just using legs would do?

I thought the power required to move a boat through the water was by the square of its speed, but recently heard its by the cube! The lesson here is reduce weight as much as possible and lower wetted area and induced drag. Keeping the transoms out of the water as much as possible may be a big help. On my recent trip to Catalina I noticed the added gear weight of 130-150 lbs sinking the transoms more than I expected. Find a way to secure gear forward of the crossbar.

Consider a Prindle 19 for your adventure. I keep mine next to a Hobie Miracle 20 and the P19 is actually a little longer and possibly lighter? For whatever rowing/peddling setup you decide it has rotating centerboards which may stay out of the way more. I bought mine for $2500 in decent condition and it came with a spin. You could fashion a pole from a 2" thin wall aluminum tube similar to mine without the unnecessary extras keeping cost down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07EA0r3vpNo

Propeller propulsion requires so many critical considerations to do it right you'd need an engineer.

As it turns out I am an Engineer, so I think the pedal propulsion is possible, although I am not convinced that it is the most efficient. spfx, you're probably right to think that two people rowing with long sweeps will be the fastest, but to do it right it will need to have a seat on a track system so that, like you said, one can take advantage of leg back and arm muscles. Because I am a sailor first and foremost any system must not impede the sailing ability of the boat and not clutter the boat to much. Once I find the right boat I will starting designing some kind of system and keep you'll informed of how it takes shape.

That leads me to the boat. With the US/CA dollar gap getting greater and greater and my funds in CAD its starting only to make sense to buy a boat in Canada. That limits my options tremendously! Right now there are two boats within a reasonable distance from the west coast. A hobie 18 and a Nacra 570, with the nacra being about 1000 dollars higher. Both lack a spi. Assuming both boats have adequate sails, in good condition structurally and both will get their rigging replaced, which is the more suitable boat??

I have been thinking about options for a spinnaker/genniker/code 0 system and have thought about putting one on a continuous roller furling and generally keeping it hoisted unless the weather is really nasty, in which case it could be lowered and lashed to the tramp. Has anyone done this, or have thoughts about it? It looks like the Hobie pearl does this...