Rudders

Sounds right, although not related to new rudders?

The helm is completely tied to the COE vs CO...something else...sigh. It's like you said above, coe back and stern moves with wind, coe forward and bows move. The rake of the rudders just determines how hard they are to move, or how twitchy they are. Rudders back can feel like weather helm, though.

i would try the mast first
i would look at your rudders (and boards if you have any) and see if they have wear on them that could be effecting helm

soulofasailor wrote: Moving a notch or two. and leave the rudders right as they are

This sounds like a good plan.
Does your R21 have the ability in the forestay and side stays to adjust mast rake?
It has been decades since I sailed one but I seem to remember the ability to...

yes it is the Forestay , mine was to tight i lessened it like a loose tooth and went out sailing for a moment to see if it changed! It did now the boat was rounding up! so now i have to find the happy meduim. I do have 2 stays on each side towards stern. it seems my other stays are all the way down so i have to re look at this again.

Slight rounding up is a good thing. You don't want it to wear you out over a day of sailing but a little weather helm is reassuring.

I use to have serious weather helm on my P-18 and then I trued the rudders with a straight edge like it talks about in the manual. The next time I took it out it was totally different. The difference was amazing. I didnt think that rudders being out of alignment that slight was a a big deal. I guess you learn something everyday.

Hey traneguy do you have that manual maybe u could take a pic of it so I can see if anything on,my boat is similar. I still had helm Issues , I dont know how im gonna fix this for next year. So any help is cool with me..

Edited by soulofasailor on Dec 01, 2012 - 03:27 PM.

soulofasailor wrote: Hey traneguy do you have that manual

The manual he is talking about is the Prindle assembly manual. It says to put a meter stick along the transom and make the forward tip of the rudder close to the forward edge of the meter stick- like within 1/2". Don't hold me to the details, the manual is avail in the tech section:

This is the specific page:

http://www.thebeachcats.com/pictures/?g2_itemId=75862

This technique is probably not applicable to your Reynolds.

Edited by klozhald on Dec 04, 2012 - 02:41 PM.

on our Iroquois mkII 30' cat the rudders are adjustable. too far foreward and we have lee helm. too far aft and we have weather helm.
marc

More things than mast rake involved. Mast rake will load the rudders, without dagger boards that will make a difference.
Toe in or out makes a difference. Not familiar with the boat you have too much but with board slight toe in front to rear is common. Neutral is also common.

Last and most likely the largest factor for lee or weather helm is rudder rake. Moving the rudders further under the boat makes more lee helm, pulling the bottom of the rudder aft gives more lee helm.

If you can adjust the rudders to be not raked under as much it should help. HTH, Ricardo.

The rudder design on the Reynolds was always a weakness. The blades are too thick, and cavitate easily when loaded up. And they have no provisions for raking them fore and aft to regulate helm effort. When sailing in 15 kts plus with a modest weather helm, the rudders would suddenly cavitate, and violent lee helm would set in. Long term, you're gonna want to find boards with a better profile(SC20/22 blades?) and adapt them to your castings. You won't find any beachcat rudder assemblies that will fit your taller transoms.

Another thought, pay attention to your rudder hold down lines/cleats. With greater boatspeed, the pressure on the rudders tends to pivot them aft, which affects both helm and tiller load.

Dave

What if I sand the shit our of them make them thinner in width. Is this what u are saying? I do notice. When rudders pop up I have no stearing. And when the boat goes faster it get stronger to stear.

What if I sand the **** our of them make them thinner in width.

unless you understand how/where your modifications are going to affect the hydro-dynamics, drag and friction, i wouldn't touch them.

I have seen very sailors completely ruin rudders by trying to modify their profile / characteristics, when they didn't really know what they were doing

Well i have no idea what i am doing but if they are to thick then why cant i thin them down? And i have no idea what you just said! hahhha 🙂 explain to me how will i figure this out? do i need a big aquarium with water movement as the blades are looked at?

what about the type of wood to use for making a set of rudders? Have any of you tried this, i was going to trace my originals ok a piece of cardboard and then cut it out. So i am thinking to make them thinner then the original ones? What do you guys think of this?

Winter project 🙂

I wonder if i could buy a small sheet of Fiberglass all ready to go, Does anyone know of such a thing?

Well i have no idea what i am doing but if they are to thick then why cant i thin them down?

the answer is in your own statement... you just have to reverse it...
Q: why cant i thin them down?
A: Well i have no idea what i am doing ..... 🙂

And i have no idea what you just said! hahhha 🙂

if you try to modify your own rudders and you are not an experienced marine fabricator, and hydro-dynamist (made-up word).... you are more likely to end up with worse rudder problems than you have now.

Rudders have lots of curve, shape, edging etc.
If you start to shave-off / modify the shape of the current rudders, and don't recreate the correct shape (or develop a new shape that works better...) you will be worse off and now need to find/purchase new rudders to replace

I sail 140+ days a year and hit bottom enough to require touch up work on my rudders and center-boards. I have been working on my rudders (tips) a lot this year (3 different times) by adding gelcoat putty to extend the length back to original size and shape. The amount of time, energy, and skills needed (to fair) are much higher than i expected.

It took me many applications of gelcoat, and sanding back down with multiple levels of sandpaper.... just to develop a semi decent grasp on how to properly fair the rudder edges into ALMOST the right shape, angle, edge, etc. and this was only after i had 2 friends (who were both in the fabricating industry) sit with me for an hour + and show me some technique. It is not impossible, but it is a skill for sure.

explain to me how will i figure this out? do i need a big aquarium with water movement as the blades are looked at?

Yes, don't forget to get a degree in hydro-dynamics, or find out how others succesfully overcame your helm issues (there has to be others who experienced this).

personally, I would mess with my mast rake, and every other possible adjustment before i touched any part of my boat with sandpaper or drill

what about the type of wood to use for making a set of rudders?

some great data in here
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/need-advice-building-wooden-rudder-35976.html

What do you guys think of this?

If you are good with wood... sounds great

Edited by MN3 on Dec 10, 2012 - 08:41 AM.

Well my plan is to not modify the originals, just copy them maybe just make them thinner the first try, and use wood, maybe hardwood first. get a feel for the designing of it. the Oval shape is all i see and issue in trying to copy that! (the profile)

Here is what my rudder looks like!

im neither a rocket scientist or a hydrodynamics engineer and can only base my suggestion on my education at hobie 101 thru 440 check the rudders angle and attitude. I had too much weather helm and a 1/4 inch adjustment on tiller made me a beliver in "there is a right way to do everying".

well mine will not go anymore in towards stern, once i have time i might see if i can make new ones if not i will just deal with it.

Have you tried contacting Reynolds? They may have some ideas.

http://xscats.com/contact-us/

yes this is what i am told from Randy..

The reason is because of the raked angle of the transoms. You have to figure out a way to make your blades be at a 90-degreee angle - straight up and down. Randy suggested making a wedge piece that you could afix to the transom, that the rudders would attach to. The other thing you could do is straighten out the transoms, if you're handy with fiberglass.

Easy enuff - re drill the pivot hole. Set the boat on the trailer and get it so the water line is level Drop the boards and see where they are in relation to the hull. A level will get you to perpendicular. If you can not get to perpendicular remove the bolt holding the rudder Keep the lower part of the blade against the casting and move the top until perpendicular is achieved. Mark the blade thru bolt hole in the casting with a sharpie and drill. Go sailing to check progress If it works for you then fill old hole with epoxy and your done.

Why isnt there a place online to buy blades (rudders), i cant find any places to even look at them. I cant believe there has to be a market for this.

http://www.dotan.com/

soulofasailor wrote: Why isnt there a place online to buy blades (rudders), i cant find any places to even look at them. I cant believe there has to be a market for this.

soulofasailor wrote: Why isnt there a place online to buy blades (rudders), i cant find any places to even look at them. I cant believe there has to be a market for this.

Is there just one pivot point on the rudder, it is hard to tell without seeing the whole rudder casting, the rudder almost looks like a Prindle rudder. Can you post a picture of the casting and how it attaches to the transom showing the gugdens

try a block under the top gudegon to move it away from the transom therefore moving the rudder blade foreward .