A while back I remember a forum post describing a method of rigging a simple setup of rope and bungee that provided a step that makes it easy to get over the front crossbar quickly. Can anyone direct me to that post,please? These old shoulders ain't what they used to be!! Thanks...
It was a post by catmodding (Andre).
Go here:
Getting onboard can be tough
i have seen older sailors fail to be able to get back on their boats after a capsize (and also other boater who couldn't get on dingys and inflatables)
I have tried a few different "ladders" and knotted ropes - they did not work well because they push under the beam/boat when trying to step on them
I am not 100% sure if the image/system posted is better or not - but it does look like you need a way to attach it forward of the beams. I do not like the idea of having lines hanging around up front (or anywhere) that can snag on someting, or worse be another hazard during a flip
I have learned (the hard way) that on my boat (mystere 5.5) with lots of volume in the bows: that is not the best place to re-board the cat.
for me: i get to the side stay area: reach up and grab a trap handles with one hand , then the other hand. With both hands holding me in place i swing 1 foot aboard - then the second foot. at this time only my butt is still in the water and i push my feet in a little more - then lift my butt up and onboard (mostly with core strength: using my arms as little as possible because they will tire quickly)
this is the best way for me (i have tried many ways)
this is a good skill to practice prior to needing it
grandpap, what are you sailing?
MN3
klozhald wrote: It was a post by catmodding (Andre).
Go here:
Thats the link to the fotos.
Heres the link to the topic
https://www.thebeachcats.com/forums/viewtopic/topic/14029/start/0
André
André de Bruin, Amsterdam,the Netherlands
P 18-2
MN3 wrote: for me: i get to the side stay area: reach up and grab a trap handles with one hand , then the other hand.
MN3, interesting technique. How do you get to the side stay area (outside the hulls)? I've found that when we pull up our Nacra I20, we invariably land between the hulls (in front of the center crossbeam), so if we were to try your technique, we'd have to go around the hulls to get to the side stay area. I do wonder if we had a more traditional over-hull righting line (rather than the Hawaiian style under tramp righting line we have), perhaps we'd then naturally land on the outside of the hull which would make your technique easier...
Related point: our biggest problem on the I20 to date hasn't been as much climbing on board from the center crossbeam at a standstill -- the bigger problem has been that the boat starts accelerating immediately after being righted, dragging us through the water and making it hard for us to hold on, let alone climb back-up. In a few recent instances, the boat was going so fast with us still clinging to the dolphin striker that we basically let it capsize a second time before we'd be forced to let go and separate from the boat... Any ideas on how to make sure the boat stays head-to-wind? In all these cases we righted fairly close to nose to wind. We're 30-35 year old and quite fit, and yet got super tired within 3 capsizes, so I now see getting back on board is not only a problem for older sailors...!
My thoughts:
- With the self-tacking jib wanting to push the boat downwind, maybe we've been unsheeting our mainsheet/track too much during the capsize recovery, such that the boat ends up with balanced or lee helm, and starts sailing on its own rather than pivoting into the wind. So we should try keeping the main half sheeted / track half in in order to still have weather helm pushing us nose to wind?
- Maybe we need a bungee system on the rudders to help pull them into the wind? (not 100% sure how this would work, maybe attach a bungee to the mainsail traveller so that it pulls the tiller bar into the wind -- we'd clip this bungee in during capsize recovery to make sure the boat gets steered upwind, and then unclip once we're back on board)
Edited by southstars2012 on Apr 27, 2017 - 01:56 PM.
MN3's procedure is what I use on the F18 and the N20. Southstars, your problem is a valid one. Time and experience help. This is my advice:
1) Always run a righting line on a bungee to the corners of the main beams. A more traditional righting line does nothing for you but make it harder to right the boat.
2) DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT drop the main traveler prior to righting. Completely free the mainsheet but leave the traveler centered. Completely ease the jib sheet.
3) Once righted, I tend to dive under the hull in front of the daggerboard from the front crossbar, using the daggerboard to keep me from sliding aft, then pop out on the side, grab the skippers trap handle and if warranted slide back and grab a tiller or tiller crossbar while in the water to get the boat into the wind. If for some reason this fails, the other approach is to slide under the tramp back to the rear crossbeam and grab the tiller crossbar and steer off the back of the boat while the other crew initially provides righting moment then gets to the side and hops onboard via the method MN3 described.
4) To reduce exhaustion, I clip into the righting line with my trapeze hook during righting. This limits upper body use. After the 2nd capsize I would be heading to shore. After a while you consider this seriously after the first capsize..
Edited by samc99us on Apr 27, 2017 - 03:36 PM.
A word of THANKS to KLOZHALD for help getting the post on reboarding my cat!!!! grandpap
I do wonder if we had a more traditional over-hull righting line (rather than the Hawaiian style under tramp righting line we have), perhaps we'd then naturally land on the outside of the hull which would make your technique easier...,
nope - i still end up between the hulls. it is not hard to get to the outside for me because .... my boat doesn't take off after a cap/righting (more below)
Related point: our biggest problem on the I20 to date hasn't been as much climbing on board from the center crossbeam at a standstill -- the bigger problem has been that the boat starts accelerating immediately after being righted,
Yup - been there, held on to my righting line while my jib filled and my cat took of like a rocket - right towards the pier 60 and all the hazards.. i was being dragged like indiana jones and had to pull myself to the boat, climb on it and steer it away from being smashed at the last second... really rough day
so i learned ...
my technique these days. IF (when) i capsize....
absolutely first thing to do is pull out my anchor and let it sink (will stop the cat from drifting while on it's side and sailing/drifting when it is righted)
second thing i do is furl my jib so it can't fill with wind after righting and it wont hold water during righting (another great reason to have a furling jib)
third thing i do is disconnect the main so it can't hold water during righting
then i get my righting line set up, if solo i grab a righting bag or both (i carry 2) and get my "lean on"
btw - i agree with samc99us if you have a self tacking jib, and no anchor
MN3
+1 on samc99us's technique with emphasis on "release the jib sheet" and one addition: I board from outside the hulls, next to the windward tiller. It is usually the lowest part of the hull, sinks easily under my pressure, and I can push the rudders to get the bow into the wind.
Having said that, I've had situations where I ended up in a super-man stance, holding on for dear life to the aft beam.
A good friend of mine, in a similar situation, lost his shorts and arrived on the beach in, um, breezier condition than he had left.
Edited by martin_langhoff on Apr 28, 2017 - 10:47 AM.
We don't carry anchors while racing, not a terrible idea in general but knowing my luck I'll flip in 30+ feet of water and that's a lot of rode. I have thought about carrying a righting bag to use as a sea anchor on distance races, and that is probably a good idea.
grandpap wrote: A word of THANKS to KLOZHALD for help getting the post on reboarding my cat!!!!
My pleasure. It's why we are all here.
Last year I went from first to last place in a 40 mile race offshore because it took so long for me to get on board after a capsize. I did not realize how much upper body strength I had lost, and it became a critical factor. The advice in this thread is great, and rich with experience. What you will need to do varies a bit from boat to boat, but be sure about this: The most important factor is your physical ability to get your butt out of the water. None of these techniques will work if you do not have the strength and agility to get it done. And in this case, practice makes it possible. The next time you go out sailing and are disappointed by the meager wind, do some capsize drills. Do it until you are too tired to do more, and you will know your limit. Then decide if that limit is acceptable, or should you concentrate on improvement. If you love to sail your cat, hopefully this will be enough motivation to improve your physical condition.
I'm not preaching to you here, I am relating my personal experience. Additional motivation for me was the intense disappointment on my son's face as he helped pull me out of the water.
We don't carry anchors while racing, not a terrible idea in general but knowing my luck I'll flip in 30+ feet of water and that's a lot of rode. I have thought about carrying a righting bag to use as a sea anchor on distance races, and that is probably a good idea.
i totally understand the need to be as light as possible during racing
i carry a nice fortress alum anchor. It weighs only 4 lbs - poly line is light too (my 5' of chain isn't so light)
since this is a critical part of my righting ... and since we island hop all day - every time... it's a necessary evil for me
MN3
I did not realize how much upper body strength I had lost, and it became a critical factor.
one very cold capsize in the winter (with gear on that became VERY heavy when wet) was all i needed to find a different way
The trap handle method does not require a lot of strength. the hardest part is getting to the handle (since it's a few feet up). but once you have it... swinging a foot on board isn't that hard. once you have both feet on deck... i use my back and core muscles a lot more than upper body to wiggle on board.
It ain't pretty - but it works well for me (YMMV)
MN3
klozhald wrote: The next time you go out sailing and are disappointed by the meager wind, do some capsize drills.
Meager wind, yes . . . no wind, NO. Very difficult to right a boat without wind to assist.
Philip
I might consider slinging one of these rock climbing straps over the side...
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00388SAFI?psc=1&smid=A2V4VPRRTU0DB8
i have yet to see any rope style ladder that works hanging over the hull (or beam). I think it has to be rigid or lean against something to work (or be a fixed line attached at multiple points) but would be happy to be wrong
please report back if you try
nohuhu wrote: I might consider slinging one of these rock climbing straps over the side...
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00388SAFI?psc=1&smid=A2V4VPRRTU0DB8
Edited by MN3 on Aug 25, 2017 - 08:39 AM.
MN3
Meager wind, yes . . . no wind, NO. Very difficult to right a boat without wind to assist.
Many people forget about this. If you are going to practice on a dead calm day, be sure to have some extra help available.
I can solo right the N5.7 with no aids, IF I have 20mph wind.
I need the Colorado Big Bag totally, & I mean totally full when flipping on a dead calm day. Found that out when I purposefully flipped to retrieve a halyard that ran to the masthead.
E C Hilliard
Nacra 5.7
Bombardier Invitation
MN3 wrote: i have yet to see any rope style ladder that works hanging over the hull (or beam). I think it has to be rigid or lean against something to work (or be a fixed line attached at multiple points) but would be happy to be wrong
True words.
What has (recently) worked for me, but is difficult and required practice, is to use the righting line with the large (12") eye splice in the end.
Wrap or tie the righting line around the mast or side stay so the loop is just under the water and you can get your foot in it.
Off the side, you can use the hull to push against and the side stay to pull on until you can reach the trap handle.
Over the front beam you can pull up on the mast/rotator/what have you and get up.
Did I mention it takes practice?
In other news, someone here used a curved piece or PVC pipe spliced into an eye to make a harness like you show, but he also did it on the end of his righting line. Multiple uses for items on the tramp is a theme here, as having separate equipment stored somewhere accessible is frequently in the way and then (ultimately) left onshore when needed.
Those sewn harnesses are expensive. When I climbed, I used to tie my own from a piece of tubular webbing. I can show you how, but you will also need something strong to attach it to the cat for storage and use, hence the comment about separate equipment.
Edited by klozhald on Aug 25, 2017 - 11:57 AM.
That's what I had in mind, Bob. Dangled over the side by the stays. No reason this wouldn't be effective if you could get a grip of one trap. You could even have your crew clip it to the stay/trap where it's needed. The loop height is adjustable on the $19 model.
For that matter, has anyone tried grabbing the traps, extending your legs on the hull and slo-walking up to a trapped position? Just curious. It would require some upper body strength.
Lessons learned from earlier this season. I need a righting bag to get my catamaran upright, and relying on others to offer assistance is risky business. I am able to get on the boat over the front cross-beam and along the side. I watched someone who tried to help me, attempt to board a low-transom outboard skiff using a rope ladder, and it looked like we would have to tow him to shore. He made it, but barely. Rope ladders will not get an unfit person on any boat. A stand-off ladder does not look like a feasible tool for a beach catamaran.
I think it is a good idea as we age. to push the boat off-shore on a calm day and check out our ability to board in ideal conditions, and make a judgement whether we can re-board under more difficult conditions with wind and waves, and plan accordingly. Being unable to self-rescue means you need assistance which may or may not be available. I hope the day I can't re-board is a long way off, but I'm realistic enough to continue to be certain by testing that ability. Besides, swimming is fun.
I have a ARC 21 that has large hull volumes and is difficult to board. I found that putting a bowline in the righting line at the level just below the waterline has been of great help. The righting line is anchored around the mast ball and has a couple figure eight knots just above the level of the deck of the hull. I put my foot in the bowline grab one the line above the knot and pull myself up and then rotate my other leg onto the tramp. This has worked well for me.
Edited by spoulton on Aug 25, 2017 - 09:00 PM.
Always run a righting line on a bungee to the corners of the main beams. A more traditional righting line does nothing for you but make it harder to right the boat.
Sam do you have a picture of how you run your righting line or could you post a drawling of this as I do not have mine rigged that way and you thoughts have always been right on.
spoulton wrote: I have a ARC 21 that has large hull volumes and is difficult to board. I found that putting a bowline in the righting line at the level just below the waterline has been of great help. The righting line is anchored around the mast ball and has a couple figure eight knots just above the level of the deck of the hull. I put my foot in the bowline grab one the line above the knot and pull myself up and then rotate my other leg onto the tramp. This has worked well for me.Edited by spoulton on Aug 25, 2017 - 09:00 PM.
Oh Yeah! The Cowboy way of getting right back on that horse!
Scott, I'm gonna pm you an account of our local ARC22 pilot, who had a complete turtle in a channel midway through our recent 20 mile race. I think you can appreciate his situation at the time. It was not pretty.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4WEMq6hfz8&feature=youtu.be
In this vid there's a lot of slack in the setup, by tightening the bungee-cord
the system can be as sleek as you wat it .
As said before, I'm aging. Close to 60 now. Less and less "cowboy tricks"
for me. This system works for me and lot more club members, here.
A
Edited by catmodding on Aug 28, 2017 - 03:42 AM.
André de Bruin, Amsterdam,the Netherlands
P 18-2
When I had to re board my SC15 after the first capsize a sailing partner advised boarding over the stern. First I had to unpin one end of the tiller crossbar and toss it onto the tramp. It's much lower aft. Worked well. On the second re board on a SC19 I got on right at the stern crossbar from outboard.
The Supercats can be tough due to their hull size.
I always board mine at the rear, side of the hull, not the stern as its near impossible to get past the tiller crossbar, and mine aren't pinned, they are bolted.
Have a buddy that has a 1/2" line tied off to the center tramp lines, that he throws overboard and has figure 8 knots in the line for grip. Gives him just enough extra pull to get a leg up on board, and be able to haul himself the rest of the way. The line is left loose enough when stored, that he can reach it and pull it overboard while in the water
near impossible to get past the tiller crossbar, and mine aren't pinne
I would not subscribe to entry over the rear beam under most circumstances
harness, hook, line, shoe, nosehair, etc can get caught on a rudder, casting, crossbar, travler, etc and these are all critical areas of steering and helm. can't afford to break, bend, sheer,screw up, or other.
also - unpinning a cross bar to gain access sounds risky too.
loose that ring ding (not have spares) and your day has ended/be modifed
drop or kick off that crossbar that is connected to 1 upper casting only - asking for a bend, crack, break or other ...
MN3
I am 62. Hobie 18. Sailing solo in 15 to 20 gusting to ?? last Sat. I capsized in the Neuse River NC. Enough force to almost turtle me w mast stuck in mud 18 ft down. I am stuck, 3 ft waves, cant swing the bow, bad. I release the shroud extention to no avail. As I across from Cherry pt MCAS the U. S. Navy comes to my rescue in 1 30 ftr and 4 over 40 ft swift boats. Pretty cool. They help me right the rig. As to this email string, I am trying to board the 18 and we are sailing along. I lose my grip and the 18 sails off as pretty as you please. Yes the sails/sheets were prepped for righting. The Navy picks me up and we chase the 18 down in the 40 ftr and drop me of on the wings at 10knots. To do this repeatedly I can see myself getting tired. The wings impede my boarding because of seas and PFD. I wished for a loop or other hand hold. I hate to admit but this scene happened twice. I sailed for 2 hours and fought w the sailboat for 4. When I was 40 and under this would be no prob. Now I am rethinking when I will go solo again.
I can share a few of the learnings we had from our I20 while prepping in San Fran and then doing R2AK.
(A) Capsize recovery:
Early on it took us multiple times to learn how to not have the boat race away the moment we got it back upright (mostly in 18-25kt wind in San Francisco). The boat would land upright, bear away a bit and shoot off (regardless of how close to the wind we righted it), with us hanging on under the tramp trying desperately to hold on and losing strength fast (note: both crew 30-35 year old and fit).
What we learnt (including thanks to tips from posts above):
- Furling jib is your #1 friend: if you have a furler, furl the jib so the boat will pivot into the wind under main only. If no furler, steps below should be sufficient (but consider getting a furler)
- While capsized, ease the jib sheet all the way out, as well as mainsheet but not main traveller: this avoids over-easing the main, helping prevent/slow the boat from bearing away
- If you have an anchor or righting bag, consider using it as a sea anchor to slow the boat down further (we never tried this but could see the value in hairy conditions to put all the odds in your favor)
- Install one grab line fore-aft under the tramp (from front beam or dolphin striker, to rear beam), and then another grab line port-starboard under the rear beam. The grab lines should be fairly tight so they don't drag in the water while sailing. That way the moment the boat rights itself (with you hanging onto the dolphin striker to stop it from re-capsizing the other way), you can quickly shimmy down the lines to the rear beam while keeping hold to the boat
- Once at the rear beam push the tiller bar so the boat rounds up into the wind and stops
- Take a breather for a few secs. With the boat stopped, you now have time.
(B) Re-boarding:
- I think there's merit in most of the approaches above (climbing line system in front of the mast, using a knot in the righting line, using the trapeze handle from the side...). These depend a lot on personal preference/fitness, height of the forward beam/hulls, whether you have wings, etc...
- My view is boarding from the outside rear of the windward hull is the best all-around approach if the above don't work for you. Fairly fast to execute, low freeboard to deal with, can grab wings/footstraps to help pull yourself, and can be done while keeping the boat pointing into the wind (especially if you're singlehanded), etc. How I've done it: once you're at the rear beam and have the tiller crossbar pushed all the way so the boat is staying head-to-wind, shimmy around the rear of the windward hull to the outside end of the hull (without letting go of the boat - helps if you have some grab lines and keep hold of the tiller bar/tiller as you move). Once you're outside, with the tiller hard over, there's normally space on the rear of the windward hull for you to clamber up without getting caught in the tiller.
I'll caveat that I'm no expert yet at re-boarding easily (I mostly just brute-force pull myself up)
I solo an Inter 20 in light winds. The boat takes off right away in no wind. I quickly go around to the trapeze lines and pull myself up. For next season, I will set up a line off the front beam to facilitate instantly getting back on. I've seen others at my club with this set up. It allows you to quickly board before the boat has a chance to even get going.