Hi fellow sailers, Can anyone tell me any other handling differences other then the cavitation issue of the old rudder blades vs the new round tip blades? Is it worth spending the money for the new style rudders is what I’m trying to convince myself.
Thanks!!!
Edited by zirie1982 on Aug 22, 2022 - 04:08 AM.
Check to see if the rudders are new (rounded tips) or old (square tips) (square bottom). The previous design is susceptible to ventilation. Not a deal breaker, but it should make a difference in price.
Edited by jdaniels69 on Aug 22, 2022 - 02:23 AM.
zirie1982 wrote: Hi fellow sailers, Can anyone tell me any other handling differences other then the cavitation issue of the old rudder blades vs the new round tip blades? Is it worth spending the money for the new style rudders is what I’m trying to convince myself.
Thanks!!!Edited by zirie1982 on Aug 22, 2022 - 04:08 AM.
short story, yes.
Been racing P-19s and modified 18-2 (FrankenKitty) since 1989. Had the original square rudders on the 19 and upgraded to the ellipticals and there is a huge difference. Unfortunately, I had given them away to a friend. To the point I'm considering building an elliptical set for FrankenKitty.
zirie1982 wrote: Hi fellow sailers, Can anyone tell me any other handling differences other then the cavitation issue of the old rudder blades vs the new round tip blades? Is it worth spending the money for the new style rudders is what I’m trying to convince myself.
Thanks!!!Edited by zirie1982 on Aug 22, 2022 - 04:08 AM.
Its night and day difference. Im so much more comfortable with my 19 over 20 knots with the elipticals than the square tips.
To get the full benefit of the newer rudder system you will also have to install the newer rudder gudgeons. They make the rudders further aft of the transoms.
Yes the new style rudders do offer benefits, but not at the price they are asking for them. I have used both on the 18-2. The new style were a more responsive when I added the square top mainsail, but they came with the boat I had plus the old style ones.
HULLFLYER wrote: To get the full benefit of the newer rudder system you will also have to install the newer rudder gudgeons. They make the rudders further aft of the transoms.
Yes, forgot, this is to also keep the rudder from hitting the transom when you put them down.. good catch Hullflyer..
Thanks everyone lots of great input, I put a new square top main on and I’ve been taking my time getting the rudders dialed in and it’s much different feeling then the pin head main. Its insane how much this boat wants to go with the new glaser main. So I’ve been playing the mast rake and the rudders but it’s still a little much weather helm. Wondering if the eliptical rudders are the answer. But with each adjustment the helm is feeling better.
HULLFLYER wrote: To get the full benefit of the newer rudder system you will also have to install the newer rudder gudgeons. They make the rudders further aft of the transoms.
Good point.. I had the 2" gudgeons with the old style and figured all boats had already done that.
texastuma wrote: [quote=HULLFLYER]To get the full benefit of the newer rudder system you will also have to install the newer rudder gudgeons. They make the rudders further aft of the transoms.
Good point.. I had the 2" gudgeons with the old style and figured all boats had already done that.
Would anyone say there is a benefit to using the extended gudgeons with the older rudders?
zirie1982 wrote: [quote=texastuma][quote=HULLFLYER]To get the full benefit of the newer rudder system you will also have to install the newer rudder gudgeons. They make the rudders further aft of the transoms.
Good point.. I had the 2" gudgeons with the old style and figured all boats had already done that.
Would anyone say there is a benefit to using the extended gudgeons with the older rudders?
Texastuma - I had a dickens of a time getting the helm right with the old-style rudders and the newer grudgeon on my 18-2 with a Glaser Square Top.... couldn't get the weather helm out. Went back to the standard ones, and presto, balanced helm
More of a curiosity question, how did you balance it out?
JohnES wrote: [quote=zirie1982][quote=texastuma][quote=HULLFLYER]To get the full benefit of the newer rudder system you will also have to install the newer rudder gudgeons. They make the rudders further aft of the transoms.
Good point.. I had the 2" gudgeons with the old style and figured all boats had already done that.
Would anyone say there is a benefit to using the extended gudgeons with the older rudders?
Texastuma - I had a dickens of a time getting the helm right with the old-style rudders and the newer grudgeon on my 18-2 with a Glaser Square Top.... couldn't get the weather helm out. Went back to the standard ones, and presto, balanced helm
More of a curiosity question, how did you balance it out?
The square top moves some sail behind the center of resistance providing more weather helm. Take some rale out if need be. Evem a pin hole on the rigging does it
cholley12 wrote: [quote=JohnES][quote=zirie1982][quote=texastuma][quote=HULLFLYER]To get the full benefit of the newer rudder system you will also have to install the newer rudder gudgeons. They make the rudders further aft of the transoms.
Good point.. I had the 2" gudgeons with the old style and figured all boats had already done that.
Would anyone say there is a benefit to using the extended gudgeons with the older rudders?
Texastuma - I had a dickens of a time getting the helm right with the old-style rudders and the newer grudgeon on my 18-2 with a Glaser Square Top.... couldn't get the weather helm out. Went back to the standard ones, and presto, balanced helm
More of a curiosity question, how did you balance it out?
The square top moves some sail behind the center of resistance providing more weather helm. Take some rale out if need be. Evem a pin hole on the rigging does it
Hey guys thanks for all the input! Really!
So my fix was=
I had a shorter upper forstay made “shorter by 1.5 inches” and that put the measurement to more like 28’ 11” if you measure from the shackle on the main halyard to the center of the rear crossbeam. Then I adjusted my rudders fwd, so the intersecting line of the transom angle was more like 5/8 at the rudder tip instead of the recommended 1/2”. The boat is alot more balanced now , but still not as balanced feeling as the old pinhead main.
Aren't there two different lengths of prindle square bottoms through the years?
and the rounded ones even longer?
zhopper wrote: Aren't there two different lengths of prindle square bottoms through the years?
and the rounded ones even longer?
Yes. The P-16 and P-18 rudders are longer than the P-19 & P18-2 original rudders. I believe the elliptical rudders are a couple of inches deeper than the longer 16 & 18 rudders. Mainly, the ellipticals do not ventilate like the square tipped rudders. The boat responds a lot better and the point increases a couple of degrees.
Some mentions here with new Glaser sails on P18 & 19 . They definitely have a reputation of making great sails .Are they worth the higher cost on our older platform boats ? I have a quote from them and are saying that they do a newer shape more like a F18 style , rather than the larger MX cut . Better balance with the larger MX jib .
Looking for some feedback before placing an order .
emmettv wrote: Some mentions here with new Glaser sails on P18 & 19 . They definitely have a reputation of making great sails .Are they worth the higher cost on our older platform boats ? I have a quote from them and are saying that they do a newer shape more like a F18 style , rather than the larger MX cut . Better balance with the larger MX jib .
Looking for some feedback before placing an order .
Yes, highly recommend them.. Jay and Pease we're 18-2 champions, they know the boat well and build a great product.
Here is the one they built for me
Edited by JohnES on Jan 08, 2023 - 11:47 AM.
Very nice !! Performance must have stepped up a bit ..
JohnES wrote: [quote=emmettv]Some mentions here with new Glaser sails on P18 & 19 . They definitely have a reputation of making great sails .Are they worth the higher cost on our older platform boats ? I have a quote from them and are saying that they do a newer shape more like a F18 style , rather than the larger MX cut . Better balance with the larger MX jib .
Looking for some feedback before placing an order .
Yes, highly recommend them.. Jay and Pease we're 18-2 champions, they know the boat well and build a great product.
Here is the one they built for me
Edited by JohnES on Jan 08, 2023 - 11:47 AM.
Very good to see. At the Prindle 50th Year North Americans, we had several P-19s with every combination you can think of. Chris had his full size C&C 19MX, Duly had a Smyth hybrid main and MX jib, Joey had a Smyth hybrid main and stock jib, Kevin had a stock C&C set of 19 sails, and my modified 18-2 I was running carbon Doyles (square top main and jib on bow foil). After 3 days of racing in every wind and type of course, the corrected times between everyone was very close. One could see the performance differences between the different mainsails where each had a particular range and wind they did best at.
Does Smyth sails still exist for beachcat sails ? No contact info on the web
emmettv wrote: Does Smyth sails still exist for beachcat sails ? No contact info on the web
I think they get ordered via cell phone call. He does the design but has them built elsewhere; I think overseas.
texastuma wrote: [quote=emmettv]Does Smyth sails still exist for beachcat sails ? No contact info on the web
I think they get ordered via cell phone call. He does the design but has them built elsewhere; I think overseas.
Yes he farms it out to neilpryde Singapore. I believe he can have a domestic loft so the work for an extra cost.