Nacra Rudder System, Pivmatics and Bungee Setup

contact a docter if it last more than 4 hours....

I'm tempted sometimes to rig a bungie type assist like that on my Prindle rudders because you really have to pull on them to get them to come up all the way. That sounded really bad but it's true.

I have the old design rudders without the pivmatic system. If I hit something too hard while going too fast, they could get broken off, or rip off my transom. Being an older sailor, I am much more cautious, so not much chance of that. But when I get close to the beach, it's important for me to be ready. It's a fine line. If you aren't careful, and get in too much of a hurry, they can come up too fast. In this case, you would lose all directional control, and could be screwed.

It's a fine line. If you aren't careful, and get in too much of a hurry, they can come up too fast.

Pop one up early so you only have one to deal with. You'll still have plenty of steering.

I like having the pivmatics for extra peace of mind, but I don't count on them. Overall I'm more worried about hitting something with the daggerboards than the rudders.

The one caveat with the shock cord. You will probably find that you have to replace it every season to keep the snap in how they retract, a little bit of weathering and they lose some tension. It's not too high a price to pay to get rid of the ED problem. 😉

Regards,
Dave

Every season, to add some tension, I just pull the shock cord back from the top and add a couple hog rings. That keeps them nice and tight.

A more permanent and desirable fix would to be to replace the bungee with a larger size. I went up like two sizes and it made a dramatic improvement. Threading it through the tubes can be a bit a bitch. What I did was fed a line through first, attached it to the bungee and stretched the bungee to get it into and through the tube. Leave the two bitter ends of the bungee exposed out the end of the rudder arm, one on either side of the pin that attaches the tiller cross bar. Then you can simply tie an over had knot and adjust the amount of bungee tension you like, finish with a square not and tuck the tails inside the tubes. This set up works flawlessly and you won't have to mess with it again for years. It will look like this (click on the image to see it in detail).

The rudder will retract up and out of the way with authority, which is what you want, especially if you are negotiating beach landings in a strong surf. Check out the yellow boat with the high rudders compared to the others.

A more permanent and desirable fix would to be to replace the bungee with a larger size. I went up like two sizes and it made a dramatic improvement. Threading it through the tubes can be a bit a *****. What I did was fed a line through first, attached it to the bungee and stretched the bungee to get it into and through the tube. Leave the two bitter ends of the bungee exposed out the end of the rudder arm, one on either side of the pin that attaches the tiller cross bar. Then you can simply tie an over had knot and adjust the amount of bungee tension you like, finish with a square not and tuck the tails inside the tubes. This set up works flawlessly and you won't have to mess with it again for years. It will look like this (click on the image to see it in detail).

+1

This is exactly what I've done, except after tying a knot in the shock cord, I give it a tug and put a couple hog rings on below the knot, and leave it exposed. This is really because I never thought of tucking it back in, but has the slight upside in that I can pull on the 'tail' that's created on the rare occasion it might be necessary and add even more force to bring up the rudder.

I'd add a pic, but basically it's just like mummp's only uglier. FWIW I used 5/16" shock cord. I think it would be quite a feat to fit anything larger.

Decided to resurrect this thread instead starting new one so we can get to the topic quicker I hope, with out repeating basics.
I am changing bungee cords on my N5.0 rudders and I am curious of what is the ideal position for the rudder to be in when in up position?
My theory is to keep them in like 8 o'clock position so when you hit something and PIV-maticks kick up you will still have some steering left. Another pro of this is when cat is stored on the beach rudders will be siting in the sand and not "flying" in the wind, with out tension on the rudder cord. The con of this are the waves hiting rudders when landing on the beach.
Am I right with this?

I set mine to the 9 o'clock position initially, figuring that by the time I get it in the water they will have stretched to about the position you describe. Your reasoning seems sound in wanting them on the ground when parked on the beach and i don't think that a little drag in the surf would be an issue, but I will let more experienced beach cat owners sound off on that one.

The pivmatics on my rudder system takes so much force to pop off the tillers and they're not brand new. Any fix for making the pivmatic easier to pop off the tiller?

hc16runner wrote: Decided to resurrect this thread instead starting new one so we can get to the topic quicker I hope, with out repeating basics.

Might get better and faster results with a new thread that has N5.0 and rudders in the title. People who have seen this thread before may ignore it because it's old and considered answered.

windadict wrote: Decided to resurrect this thread instead starting new one so we can get to the topic quicker I hope, with out repeating basics.
I am changing bungee cords on my N5.0 rudders and I am curious of what is the ideal position for the rudder to be in when in up position?
My theory is to keep them in like 8 o'clock position so when you hit something and PIV-maticks kick up you will still have some steering left. Another pro of this is when cat is stored on the beach rudders will be siting in the sand and not "flying" in the wind, with out tension on the rudder cord. The con of this are the waves hiting rudders when landing on the beach.
Am I right with this?

Adam,
Did you read my post earlier in this thread? Flying in the wind? Really? If you want to store the rudders in the sand when stored, simply pull the pull down line and lock it in. I always did this when beached over night. Actually dug the sand a little to let the rudders sit in. Works flawlessly.

If you are concerned about hitting something and maintaining the ability to steer, go to the two line system. One line for lock down and one line for hold up.

I'm always amazed at how people hate the Nacra system, when their experience is from crappy, worn-out hardware and lines. I know that everybody doesn't agree, but the fact is they do work great when set up correctly. Like I have said before, replace with quality robust bungees, use a "quality" pull down line, and change out the cleats to aluminum. It all works good.

klozhald wrote: [quote=hc16runner]Decided to resurrect this thread instead starting new one so we can get to the topic quicker I hope, with out repeating basics.

Might get better and faster results with a new thread that has N5.0 and rudders in the title. People who have seen this thread before may ignore it because it's old and considered answered.

Disagree. There is helpful information here.
If people ignore it, that's their choice. It further pollutes the sight to have multiple threads that covers a lot of the same issues.

mummp wrote:
Did you read my post earlier in this thread? Flying in the wind? Really? If you want to store the rudders in the sand when stored, simply pull the pull down line and lock it in. I always did this when beached over night. Actually dug the sand a little to let the rudders sit in. Works flawlessly.

Philip, apparently I was blinded by the beautiful view of those cats and missed the second part of your answer. 😕 I was trying to avoid keeping the tension on the rudder line when not in use. Now, on the second thought the cost of the line is nothing compared to possible rudders or gadgeons damage from the surf when landing on the beach. That makes sense now. :-O

If you are concerned about hitting something and maintaining the ability to steer, go to the two line system. One line for lock down and one line for hold up.

I installed PIV-matics and 2 line system on my SolCat18 2 years ago and yesterday I ordered 2 extra cleats to install on this N5.0. The system is not perfect but works.

What do you use to prevent tiller bars digging into back side of rudders in up position?

mummp wrote: [quote=klozhald][quote=hc16runner]Decided to resurrect this thread instead starting new one so we can get to the topic quicker I hope, with out repeating basics.

Might get better and faster results with a new thread that has N5.0 and rudders in the title. People who have seen this thread before may ignore it because it's old and considered answered.

Disagree. There is helpful information here.
If people ignore it, that's their choice. It further pollutes the sight to have multiple threads that covers a lot of the same issues.

+1 Philip
I wanted to keep all related information together so they will be easier and quicker found instead going thru multiple threads.

i've actually been looking to get new bungie for my boat. What length did you need per side? i've got a nacra 5.7 i measured the cord but forgot the measurement, if i recall correctly it was 5 feet per side.

I can change this thread title to make it easier to find in search.

What would be best?

Nacra Rudder System Repair

Nacra Rudder Kickup Bungee

Nacra Rudder System, Pivmatics

???

Nacra Rudders, Pivmatics and bungee setup.

windadict wrote: What do you use to prevent tiller bars digging into back side of rudders in up position?

A short piece of braided vinyl tubing slipped over the bungee before feeding through the tiller arms. You could use a short scrap piece of garden hose. Let me add that I hog ring the bungee together at a point very close to the rudders.

mummp wrote: [quote=windadict]What do you use to prevent tiller bars digging into back side of rudders in up position?

A short piece of braided vinyl tubing slipped over the bungee before feeding through the tiller arms. You could use a short scrap piece of garden hose. Let me add that I hog ring the bungee together at a point very close to the rudders.

Was the extra hog ring just to keep things neat oor does it have a practical purpose? Also I like the spring your rudders appear to have how much 5/16" shock cord did you use per side?
Thanks!

mummp

You should take detailed pics of your set up and post in the technical album if you can. The one in the album explains it okay but the picture doesn't show much.

mryella wrote: i've actually been looking to get new bungie for my boat. What length did you need per side? i've got a nacra 5.7 i measured the cord but forgot the measurement, if i recall correctly it was 5 feet per side.

That sounds about right. Proper bungie cord is not that expensive. Better to overestimate than under. I fed through the tubes without pvc or vinyl tubing, although I can see how that would make it easier. I'm just lazy. Agree on hog rings for securing the bungies. Once I got the bungies out the tube, with the rudder up, I stretched the bungie pretty tight and double hog-ringed as close to the tube as possible. Then cut the excess and allowed the end to retract into the end of the tube, a neater look.

mryella wrote: i've actually been looking to get new bungie for my boat. What length did you need per side? i've got a nacra 5.7 i measured the cord but forgot the measurement, if i recall correctly it was 5 feet per side.

On my Nacra 5.0 I measured that I need min 4.5ft to get them up, so get minimum 5ft. I am also going to use 3/8 diameter bungee instead 5/16. It fits well into tiller bar but need to get thinner wall plastic tubing to protect from scraping against tiller tubing.

mummp wrote: [quote=windadict]What do you use to prevent tiller bars digging into back side of rudders in up position?

A short piece of braided vinyl tubing slipped over the bungee before feeding through the tiller arms. You could use a short scrap piece of garden hose. Let me add that I hog ring the bungee together at a point very close to the rudders.

That is great idea, I will do that.

One other place of concern that I noticed on the rudders, is the outside edge, right below the bungee, which dig into the bottom edge of tiller arm when they are pulled all way up. Do you have anything to protect them?

windadict wrote: [quote=mummp][quote=windadict]What do you use to prevent tiller bars digging into back side of rudders in up position?

A short piece of braided vinyl tubing slipped over the bungee before feeding through the tiller arms. You could use a short scrap piece of garden hose. Let me add that I hog ring the bungee together at a point very close to the rudders.

That is great idea, I will do that.

One other place of concern that I noticed on the rudders, is the outside edge, right below the bungee, which dig into the bottom edge of tiller arm when they are pulled all way up. Do you have anything to protect them?

Let me clear up a few thing. The only purpose of the short piece of vinyl tubing is to protect the trailing edge of the rudder from hitting into the tiller arm when raises up. I kept a lot of tension on the bungee because I wanted the rudders to come all the way up and stop against the tiller arm end, hence the protective tubing.

hyperope wrote:
That sounds about right. Proper bungie cord is not that expensive. Better to overestimate than under. I fed through the tubes without pvc or vinyl tubing, although I can see how that would make it easier. I'm just lazy. Agree on hog rings for securing the bungies. Once I got the bungies out the tube, with the rudder up, I stretched the bungie pretty tight and double hog-ringed as close to the tube as possible. Then cut the excess and allowed the end to retract into the end of the tube, a neater look.

Eric, the info above should clear up the tubing. As for the hog rings, you need to put a hog ring on the bungees as close as possible, under tension, to the rudder blade, in the aft most position, when the blade in in the down position. When you do this it prevents the bungee from falling to the sides of the rudder blade. I think you are talking about hog rings where the bungee comes out the "front" of the tubes, near the cross bar, and that works fine. As I said earlier, I overhand knot the bungee on the front end, pull it tight, let the knot work itself down to the pin or bolt than attaches the crossbar hardware, and finish with a square knot. This just eliminates the hog ring. If you look at the picture enlarged you can see the bungee stuffed into the end.

I'll look to see if I have some more pictures for Zach. Zach, if you click on the pictures they are pretty large and show a lot of detail.

One other place of concern that I noticed on the rudders, is the outside edge, right below the bungee, which dig into the bottom edge of tiller arm when they are pulled all way up. Do you have anything to protect them?

Let me clear up a few thing. The only purpose of the short piece of vinyl tubing is to protect the trailing edge of the rudder from hitting into the tiller arm when raises up. I kept a lot of tension on the bungee because I wanted the rudders to come all the way up and stop against the tiller arm end, hence the protective tubing.

Philip, sorry if I confused you but that's not what I asked for, I understand the purpose and location of the plastic tubing, what I am asking is how to prevent the edge of tiller's aluminum arm digging into the back edge of the rudder, below the bungee. Perhaps you have not encounter this problem yet but on my rudders I have 1/4" notches cut by the tiller arms when rudders were all the way up. I am courious if anybody had the same problem and how did they solved that.

windadict wrote:

The only purpose of the short piece of vinyl tubing is to protect the trailing edge of the rudder from hitting into the tiller arm when raises up.

what I am asking is how to prevent the edge of tiller's aluminum arm digging into the back edge of the rudder, below the bungee.

HELLOOOOO!! :-O

Read it again slowly. It acts as the protection (bushing, bumper, pad, buffer, cushion, what ever you want to call it) separating the rudder and edge of the tiller arm from ever hitting.

Adam, I use about a 1" piece of clear tubing,(a piece of garden hose will work), that is what Nacra gives you with a new boat.
Picture your rudder in the "up" position. See where it bangs against the tiller bar? Put the piece of tubing around the bungee right there. You have to think of this when you rig the rudders, as it has to be slid down the bungee,(as far down as it will go, right against the rudder blade) before you run the bungee up inside the tiller arm & tension it.
Before I put that short piece on I also slid about 12" of that woven tubing you use to prevent chafe on lines over the bungee, placed so it covers the bungee from the hole in the rudder up to the tiller arm. Previously the bungees would wear against the sides of the rudder blade, & the bungee barely lasted a year. It also helped to use a dremel or reamer & radius the edges at the end of the tiller arm. The tube is cut "square" & that edge was a major source of wear.
If you have a 1/4" gouge into your rudder blades, you may well be through the glass & into the core. One of my blades had a good gouge, & had split the outer sheath. Drill/dremel it out a bit if you need to, then stuff the cavity with some epoxy mixed with chopped matt strands. I also added some microfibres to the mix.
I'd mail you some in an envelope, but I think fine white powder being mailed might attract attention!