Nacra 5.0 Questions

IndyXC,
EC's mast base looks like the old style 1.25" and will have to be replaced when the ball finally kicks it. Sounds like yours is an even earlier one than that. I would suggest drilling a 1/4" hole in the front part of the casting for a pin during stepping. It has to go immediately under where the ball sits just to keep it from dropping under off of the

Normally you don't leave the pin in once you have stepped the mast. The shrouds and forestay keep enough tension on it that it shouldn't jump off the ball when you capsize. If it does then your shrouds aren't tight enough. The should be tightened to the hole on the adjusters that you can reach with one person hanging on the shroud and one person putting the pin in (between 150-200 lbs of pressure or thereabouts). That should give you enough tension to keep the mast in place but still allow it to rotate freely.

I believe you can get the wishbone from Murray's Marine and the cleats are just standard and are mounted to the front beam.

The wishbone is a mast rotation device, it was optional on the boomless models. Murrays sells the part, $39

You may be able to find a used one from a parts boat, email Dan berger, he usually has lots of stuff for sale in the classified section, & is a good guy to work with. You can also ask for the cleats to mount to the front beam.
Nacra says on boomless boat the rotator is to induce rotation. I've never raced, so I'm not knowledgeable about getting every last speck of speed, but the rotation certainly does help. If you ever forget about it & have it on the wrong side, you suddenly find yourself flat on the water when all your instincts say you should be flying. The photo above is old, I don't have it rigged like that, one of the guys here,(Philip, or Ron B?)told me to tie a line to the eye strap on the beam,(just inside the cleats)then out to the end of the rotator, then back through the cleat. This gives a 2:1, & you need it. I was surprised how much force there is trying to turn the mast. In very light air I cleat both sides, it prevents the mast from banging to & fro & shaking the wind out of the sail.

The bottom of my mast looks like yours in the pic, except it doesn't have the sides cut out, or any holes for pins. Likewise, the ball looks larger than that, and doesn't sit anywhere near that far in the hole. About half the ball is captured under the bottom of that necked part of the boom.

Does it look like this?

This from G Amicks boat, a 5.2 that he resurrected, he has lots of pic, look in members albums, scroll down to Amick, he did a fabulous job.
Dave, I'm pretty sure he has the old style non captive base. With the ball only 1/2 in there is no way to drill & insert a pin that would hold anything. Mine is the 1 1/2" newer system. It is hard to tell size from the photo, I should have put a tape measure up against it.
Measure your ball, but be sure to measure from side to side. The ball will wear on the top where the mast works against it, the top may look a bit flattened & top to bottom measurement won't give you an accurate picture. Dave is right, the rig tension keeps the mast in place when capsized. The advantage to the newer captive system is it prevents the mast from jumping off the ball when raising or lowering. I don't know what oyur budget is, but if Dan B doesn't have a new style base for sale, Murrays sells the whole conversion kit, part 01-8002 for $160

edited by: Edchris177, Sep 14, 2010 - 01:15 PM

EC, you are correct, I didn't realize that they made a casting that shallow. I can see where the worry about it jumping off the ball would come from.

I think Dan has a couple of the new style bases but the part for the stepping pin is broken off (last time I talked to him). A consequence of forgetting to rotate the mast while unstepping. It isn't the end of the world, you can still step the mast as long as you are VERY CAREFUL about making sure it doesn't jump off the ball while you are raising the mast. It would be a cheap way to get the upgrade without spending a pile of cash, I believe the 1.5" ball will fit on the older dolphin striker rod too (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

EC, I've never kept my pin in while sailing. The only problem I can see with doing it it is that if you dismast for some reason you will immediately break the bottom casting and dolphinstriker rod. A shroud replacement then becomes a major pain. That and it looks like your ball is pretty chewed from the bolt (could also just be the picture).

Regards,
Dave

The ball is actually pretty good, the bolt doesn't quite touch it, but yeah I've been meaning to remove it.
If you look at my base, there are two sets of holes. A small corner of the casting near the rear hole, on the opposite side is broken off. I believe the previous owner demasted, or dropped it with the pin in, then drilled the other set of holes.
If Dan has a base with only a corner missing perhaps Indy can pick one up cheap, then drill new holes on the other end.
Indy, replace those old trap lines, if they break you get dunked, & lose the dogbone($15 min). Relace the tramp with 2 pieces of low stretch/creep line. Use 3/16" line, 1/4" is fine for the side lace, but hard to fit through the slugs on the rear beam. Grab it with pliers & pull it tight, then a little more. It is probably time to replace the forestay & shrouds too. If you break one it may be way more $$$ than the cost of a new stay, & you may lose a season if you break the mast, or your head. If your trap wire have any broken strand replace them, Dave sent me a box with more than I'll use. If you need one let me know.
Dave, get back to work & quit posting on company time, lest you get busted like Andrew.:lol:

edited by: Edchris177, Sep 14, 2010 - 03:37 PM

Indy;
I loaded the photo from Image shack, that is a really nice looking boat.
You do indeed have the old style mast base. The mast won't jump off as long as the rigging is tight. Be very careful stepping/unstepping the mast. If funds are tight no need to change it,( it is safe) unless Dan can get you parts cheap. You have the old style straight spreaders, they are are not adjustable.
I can't quite make out the hardware where the bridal wires meet the forestay, looks like factory setup. It looks like there is a Davis wind Indicator there, if the vane gone, you can get replacements, or make one.
Re front beam, I see yo have the end caps, that's good, they don't make them anymore & the price was ridiculous. Nacraman57 figured out a way to build very nice ones cheap.
You have the preventer from beam ends to mast that keeps jib blocks from hanging up. You have the tiller extension.
DO-remove that line from the bottom of the dolphin striker rod to the trailer. Tie it to the end of the V-brace bar(if you really need it)or better yet around the end of the beam, you should be just able to get a line through the tramp at the corners. If you give that line a yank as is, you WILL bend the DS rod,($60).
I wouldn't even think of painting that boat, just clean it with Barkeepers friend & buff it. You cannot cut an inspection hole in front of that beam, so you will have to fix it from outside. If the patch is really crap use really coarse sandpaper & grind it away till center is paper thin,feather out to the edges. it's easier if you have a thin layer of original as backing. Squeejee most of the resin out of your matting so you can layup 4-5 layers without the patch bulging outwards from the hull. Give it a final soft sand to remove rough spots then paint a thin layer of resin over to seal any glass you might have exposed. Then buy a couple of disposable Preval sparayers & gelcoat the patch. If you have experience with that stuff you will probably get it to nearly non noticeable. For now don't worry about the cosmetics, take it out & sail the crap out of it! You may very well put some more dings in it as you figure everything out, then you can fix them all in the off season.

edited by: Edchris177, Sep 14, 2010 - 04:08 PM

Thanks for the info again,

Here is a pic from the other side:

/

I wasn't able to make it out today, as I came down with a cold from freezing sailing yesterday. But EdChris from the picture, yes that is exactly what the bottom of my mast looks like. I will have to look into upgrading during the winter.

I do think the rigging isn't very tight on the shrouds. I can move the mast side to side, so it's probably not tight enough. Thanks for the tip on tighting the shrouds. I will have to center the mast, and then hand on the shrouds to tighten the mast down. This will be a good piece of mind, knowing that if I flip it the mast won't come out. This was one of main main concern last Sunday in 20 mph wind gusting to 25 mph. The stays themselves looks like they are in good shape, but for piece of mind, I will replace them.

What should I do with the forestay that is attached to the bridle wires on the front? Leave is is, or tighten it as well? Yes, the front wiring looks stock. With the exception of the jib, which is attached to the bottom of the forestay through a large carbiner which seems to work.

And I have already relased the tramp with non stretch rope, but how is important that it is super tight? I laced it and then redid it with plier, but it's not SUPER tight. Is that okay? I also need to learn some knots to tie this stuff all together.

Thanks again for the help.

Here is a picture from yesterday (wind died by the time we made it out) but i'm on the only working trapeze with my gf, and friend.

/

3 out of 4 trapeze did not work, because the lines were old, but it seems that the lines on the port side are longer than the starboard side. There seems to be no adjustment since they just attach to where the jib is, or are there?

Thank you for all the help again, much appreciated.

Here is how your traps can be rigged. All the wires from the mast hound "where the stays connect should be the same length. You can adjust the height by moving the rope stopper. You can also hook into the different holes in the rings on your boat to move about 4 inches up or down.

The mast has to be loose enough to rotate a total of over 180deg. 90 deg to each side. As the mast rotated it wraps the stay around the mast taking up slack.

PLEASE WEAR A PFD.

edited by: skarr1, Sep 14, 2010 - 07:37 PM

Indy,
That is a nice looking boat!! The position of the forestay is the first thing you adjust. This governs the rake of the mast (the angle that the mast sits with respect to the hulls). You generally want very little mast rake for a Nacra 5.0, it should almost be straight up and down but with a little rake backwards. In the photos the positioning looks pretty good.

The shrouds govern the rig tightness. Looking at the photos your rig is REALLY loose. The shrouds should be the same length and should be in the same hole on both sides of the boat (that will keep the mast centered). You want the rig fairly tight without restricting the mast rotation.

For tramp lacing I switched to 1/8" vectran (you can use dyneema line) this year and it has REALLY improved the tightness and stiffness of the tramp and rig overall. If you follow the lacing instructions in the manuals (in the technical help gallery) you can get a super tight tramp. I ordered mine from Annapolis Performance Sailing here:
http://www.apsltd.com/p-21223-vectrus-12-18-3mm.aspx

Just tie a bow line at one side and finish it off with 3-4 half hitches. If you follow the instructions in the manual you can get it really tight without the need for pliers or other tools.

Here are some links to the knots you need to know:

Bow Line
&Website=www.animatedknots.com

Round Turn And 2 Half Hitches
&Website=www.animatedknots.com

Figure 8
&Website=www.animatedknots.com

These will cover 99% of your needs. One other useful knot to know is the Truckers Hitch:
&Website=www.animatedknots.com

And of course coiling your rope at the end of the season`:
&Website=www.animatedknots.com

One thing to note is that you can't melt the ends of the high tech rope with flame like you do with poly rope. I would suggest either dipping the ends in liquid electrical tape or using 3:1 shrink tubing to keep the ends from fraying. You could also probably use electrical tape in a pinch.

You probably have the tramp fine for now,drive it hard to the end of the season, lacing it very tightly stiffens the boat.
I can't quite make out enough detail to see if the traps have the little rubber adjusters, you slide the adjuster up or down to get the height you want. The rear trap on the starboard side is assbackwards. They should be rigged from the trap wires that attach up near the mast hound,the bungee that goes through the front beam & the one under the tramp serve to keep tension on the line portion, to keep upward pressure on the hook so it doesn't come off inadvertently, & to keep them from flopping around when not in use. Also the front one keeps the end caps from being lost if the little set screw is missing. Rig them something like this.

The rubber line snubber is only a couple of bucks.

I can move the mast side to side, so it's probably not tight enough.

You should not be able to wobble the mast side to side or fore aft. I use the method I believe came from SKARR. Set both shrouds before you step the mast(one in its final position, the other looser)When the mast comes up, pin the forestay where you want it, crew puts on a harness & hangs out on the trap wire on the loose side, this will create slack in that shroud. Now you can easily pin that shroud to match the opposite(tighter, final position shroud) side. This will pull the mast to the rear, tensioning the forestay. Never have the mast leaning forward of center. You should have multiple holes in the forestay adjuster, experiment raking the mast aft of center a bit.
How did you make out with raisin the main, do you have the little fork near top of mast & ball on halyard? You should not be tying off the halyard at the mast base. Your should be the system on the left.
There are 2 early Nacra manual under the tech help section, they are slightly different, download them both. They are not great, you have to read carefully, but they do explain most stuff.

Enjoy the boat, don't get worked up on cosmetics, DRIVE IT HARD!

edited by: Edchris177, Sep 14, 2010 - 08:15 PM

I think the trap on the starboard side is "temporary". He had three lines break.

I added a shock cord to the rear beam to keep the end caps from falling off. It goes through the beam and hooks to the tramp lacing. It comes in handy when I want to hold the rudders to the wind to heave to.

edited by: skarr1, Sep 14, 2010 - 08:09 PM

If you had that many lines break it would be worth it to just replace all the rigging! You don't want to risk the mast coming down while you are sailing. Murrays and Salty Dog Marine both sell properly sized rigging and trap lines at reasonable prices. You should replace the rigging every 5 or so years anyway depending on how and where you sail.

After looking at the photo of the boat on the trailer, what is the bottle looking thing on the dolphin striker bar? There is also a line tied to the bar that looks like it goes to the trailer, you will bend the dolphin striker rod if you use that line to load the boat. I loop my trailer winch line over the ball. This will place all the load right next to the cross beam.

I have a 1983 5.0 as well. It came without a captive ball mast base as well. I understand they changed to the captive ball system late in 1983 or 84. After raising the mast a couple of times, one of the first things I ordered was a replacement base from Murrays. This makes raising the mast much easier and safer in my opinion. The kit was around $160.

Here is setup at the top of my mast. The main halyard should include a small ball that hooks to the small plate 6-8 inches from the top of the mast.

Thanks for all the help guys. You guys are fantastic. I'm down at home, suffering from a cold from sailing.

Edchris:

Yeah my mast does have the same type of main sail holding as in figure 18. If you guys hadn't told me about it before I tried to raise the main for the first time I would of been scratching my head for a while. But I must say, it works pretty well. That little ball is fairly easy to get under the fork, on/off. I even have to do it in the water (since I am off a boat launch) and it works fine. Much easier than the ring in figure 19, that I had on my hobbie 18. That thing would not come off half the time.

I'm not sure what the little bottle is on the dolphin striker. I would guess it's some place dry to keep the registration papers someone added. The lake we sail on (Cass Lake, in SE Detroit), let's just say the DNR used to be very "aggressive" and almost harassing, so having the registration onboard is a must.

The trapeze wires are backward on the starboard side, because even though I was on the rear of the boat, I was using the front trapeze, because the other 3 ropes on the wires are in bad shape, and that one had been recently replaced.

Good tip, on using a the trapeze harness to adjust the mast shroud tension. I will do this before the next time out. And the wires themselves look like they were recently replaced. I inspected them, no signs of wear or fraying.

Thanks again for all the help. Everyone he definitely was very helpful in helping me clear up all the questions I had.

And yes, I usually wear a PFD as well. In calm wind I don't, because, to me I guess it's worth the risk. I did take it off there, because the harness did not fit with the jacket on. But, as you can see, my gf, she's a lot more important than me, so I make her wear hers always. 🙂

By having your friend hike out you can get good tension on the rig. If I am leaving my boat for more than a day, I hike out & back off one shroud a hole or two to take the stress out when I'm not using it. Leave the plastic shroud cover up on top of the adjuster, that way it is very obvious next time out that the shroud needs to be tightened.
WEAR YOUR PFD ALL THE TIME. I never take mine off, even in 90+ weather until I'm nearly at my dock & the water is only waist deep. Some kids are fatherless today because some poor chap took his of a few days ago.
Don't mean to lecture, but your way to young, with way to much to live for to lose it for that simple(dumb) a reason. When that cat goes over, & it will, it can be pretty chaotic, with people banging off shrouds, mast etc. It can be way to easy to run your skull into something hard, think mast or shroud anchor & end up dazed in the drink, as your boat drifts away faster than anyone can swim.
Our Gov't in Canada makes it very simple, IF you want to use a sailboard,Cat etc & NOT wear your PFD, the you have to have every single bit of safety equipment that an 18' power boat requires. If you WEAR the PFD, you only need a whistle with you. Of course one can always just pony up the fines, but I prefer to divert those funds to more toys & better beer!

Hot topic right now especially since that poor fellow died!

Here ya go http://www.apsltd.com/gallerypopup.aspx?GalleryID=331

light stylish, fits with a harness AND you can pretend you are batman without the nipples. 😆

Seriously, if you don't normally wear a PFD those bouyancy aids are awesomely comfortable. The one with the muscles aside.

edited by: Wolfman, Sep 16, 2010 - 05:45 PM

just curious... is it Indianapolis cross country?

Hey guys, been out sailing pretty much everyday.

Adjusted the shroud wires to the max tensions I could get on them, and that made me feel a lot better about the mast coming off. Haven't capsized yet, but hopefully this will keep it on the ball. Over the winter I will change it over to the captive system.

I've been out about 5-8 times now, and I love this boat. It's obvious now some of the changes I need to make over the winter. Like put in an anti mast rotation system as this is killing my speed, replace all the steel cabling, etc.

I even solo'd it the other day ago in a 15 mph wind, and it was great. Made me learn a lot, and I feel completely comfortable soloing it. I like how even if the hull burries a lot, it doesn't flip immediatly like a hobie 18 or any bananna hull boat will.

One question I do have, is on my jib there are small clips that attach to the forestay. Basically plastic white, about 8 of them that you turn sideways and clip onto the forestay. Some of them are broken, and I can't seem to find replacement for them. Anyone know where they are?

And Indyxc- It's a long story, but when I was a kid (about 10 years ago), I got a brand new front fork for one of my mountain bikes called the RockShox "IndyXC", and it just so happened I used that name back then, and it's stuck since.

Thanks for the help.

Found the part. For reference they are called jib hanks!

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=56720&BASE

Indyxc
I?m not sure what you mean by an anti mast rotation system on a Nacra 5.0. Boomless boats use a positive rotator not a limiter like boom boats.

When sheeting a boom boat, like your Hobie 18, the boom forces the mast to rotate and you use the limiter, attached to the mast facing aft and connected to the boom to prevent rotation.

On a boomless boat, like most of the Nacras, the positive rotator faces forward and is used to induce rotation. If you want less rotation, move your outhaul or clew plate adjustment, forward and sheet tighter. The rotator is used mainly downwind to make the mast entry into the wind less sharp. It can also be used in choppy conditions in light air to stop the mast from going back and forth, ie. boat wakes. In high wind conditions, it can also be used to depower by inducing rotation and flattening the sail along with downhaul and sheet tension. Be careful with using the rotator, if it is on and you jibe, the mast will not rotate, battens can poke through the sail, and the boat will not power up until the rotation is released. Also, it?s adjusted from the windward side not the leeward side of the boat.

I wouldn?t worry about adding it unless I was racing. Hope this helps.

Ron, you are spot on, and I figured out a lot of what you are saying, yesterday on the lake!

Unforutantely, I went out yesterday in 30 mph winds gusting to 45 mph, and I that was just too much. Only stayed out for a bit, but long enough to do damage.

Went out without the jib, as the wind was massive and gusty. Even with the main out, and traveler out, and no jib it was still hard to slow down the boat. Once I got out there, and made it across the lake, it took forever to get home, because I was afraid to go down wind, because I though the boat would pitchpole over.

So I tried to make it back tacking back and forth downwind, which without the jib was very difficult! At one point I thought it would be a good attempt to jib! Wrong! Of course like you said, this caused the sail to fly forward and rap around the diamond wires, and almost flip forward. A quick move by my crew member to pull it down saved us from flipping. But the damage was done. One of the battens tore through the front of the sale. It seems the rip is along the sown part on the batten material.

I'll call the sail shop monday, but what does a typical sail repair cost. One sow maybe 10 inces along the batten?

Hello,

I'm French and do not control your langage as it should. With the help of google it should go ...
I am the owner of a Nacra 5.0 and I had to make several repairs since I bought it used.
I find lot of informations is this web site. It seemed important that I am also involved in showing the evolution of my work.
Thus, I created a blog, with texts and photos, : http://nacra.akwakwak.over-blog.com/

I offer tips and tricks I've used

Phil

Help please. I just got my Nacra 5.0 out of the shed for the first time in 6 years. I'm surprised it's all in pretty good order. But I can't remember how to attach the clew of the jib and can't remember how to thread the mainsail down haul. Could anyone post pictures of their setup either here or direct to my email. Thanks. Richard Watt in Hervey Bay, Australia.