Americas Cup - Oracle Comeback Continues

talk about compelling tv! I have learned more about racing watching this coverage, the graphics and multiple camera angles have been a pleasant surprise. the sense of urgency has made for good a good series.

amazing coverage

USA/Oracle should have been penalized more (imho)

no excuses for cheating. placing extra weight in the front of the boat instead of the designated area is grossly poor sportsmanship - would be disqualified in any other event

At this level, If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough. To exploit the rules to maximum advantage, you have to push the boundaries.

I think the penalty is hooey. It's similar to Derek Jeter and Ichiro of New York Yankees using corked bats in a spring training game and the team getting penalized 1 game of the World Series.

Oracle got caught. Everyone cheats, not everyone gets caught.

In highschool, I played Tight End and Guard, on defense I played Middle Linebacker and Defensive End.

I can tell you that I got called for 2 holding penalties in 30 games (3 years x 10 games/year). I know I committed the "act" of Holding on at least 60% of the plays. I was also held at least that often while on defense, and the refs caught 3 or 4 of them.

Edited by presto13031 on Sep 24, 2013 - 10:06 AM.

What was the motive for adding the weight. Were they trying to hold down the boat at the center of effort? I cant seem to find a discussion about why.

the boat was faster with the extra weight.

WOW, watch races 17 and 18 if you haven't already, the replays should be available soon at
http://www.youtube.com/user/AmericasCup

Oracle has now won 10 races to New Zealands 8, with Oracle winning the last 7 in a row. Both races today were highly dramatic, I'm still breathing hard.

Replays for today's races 17 and 18 are now available on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/user/AmericasCup

Race 17 and 18 were AWESOME! Way to go USA!

presto13031 wrote: At this level, If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough.

Speechless 😕

Edited by JohnES on Sep 24, 2013 - 08:14 PM.

At this level, If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough. To exploit the rules to maximum advantage, you have to push the boundaries.

I disagree, using the extent of the rules is one thing, blatant cheating another. Isn't that what got Lehman Bros in such deep shyte, end result bankruptcy?
I always taught my kids it was better to place 2nd, or 3rd, or maybe off the podium, rather than cheat to win.
One of my finest moments as a parent was when my daughter took 1st in a downhill ski race. She told the gatekeepers that she should have been DQ'd as she straddled a gate. They told her they didn't see it, so the results stand.
She took off her gold medal on the podium & handed it to the girl who placed 2nd, then stepped off the podium.

At every level - cheating is cheating

Rules of Racing - page 10 - http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS20132016StudyVersion- [13380].pdf

SPORTSMANSHIP AND THE RULES
Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules
that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle
of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will
promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire.

At this level, If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough. To exploit the rules to maximum advantage, you have to push the boundaries.

What was the motive for adding the weight.

I believe (Philip will correct me if i am wrong here) That the AC 45's boats (being One Design) all had a min weight requirement. There was a designated area of the boat where xtra weight was to be placed to meet the requirements and Oracle chose to place the weight up front where it would be advantageous (cheating)

The worst part of this is .... they were already the defender of the cup, they were going to be in the race regardless - there was no need to cheat / or even win

In summary, Andrew is spot on, although the experts all agree that the placement (location), theoretically would offer no advantage. Oracle immediately withdrew from ACWS, and forfeited all races and wins, and returned the trophies. I could write a book about it, so I'm not jumping in here. We've covered "ballastgate" in depth already. Plus I'm completely consumed for today, it is after all, MATCH DAY!

P.M. wrote: Oracle immediately withdrew from ACWS, and forfeited all races and wins, and returned the trophies.

Exactly what should have been done. I also don't have a problem with the individual penalties for the crew members but the two race penalty is a bit of a stretch. To go back to presto's baseball comparison this like forfeiting a game in the world series for using a corked bat in in spring training in Double A ball. The one good thing from this is we got to see 2 extra races! 🙂

I have been reading forum after forum where people close to the AC and know much more than I could ever hope to know felt the penalty was unduly harsh and draconian. What is inspiring to me is watching the Oracle TEAM pull together and stage the ultimate comeback despite almost impossible odds! And its not just Spithil .......it's the grinders, tacticians, trimmers the ground crew working on the boat all night to get it ready for the next race all the while believing in each other as a TEAM! Anybody watching Oracle rounding mark four under full foil at 35 knots in race 18 HAS to be impressed!! Go TEAM ORACLE!!!

Hey Guys< im new to this beachcat world although i have raced on trimarans and mono hulls up to 100 feet long. Yes the whole "Ballastgate" thing is an issue but im going to blame the Larry Ellison. I know the ac45 and ac72 are pretty neat and slick boats. But Seriously Larry Ellison really ruined the sport by being biased about monohulls and became a smart A** and decided build these boats with having the pressure on the other teams that need funds to create it. I can see why Alinghi isn't in it and why NZ is pissed off especially with all the court issues they went through. IM PRETTY SURE ORACLE DOESNT NEED ADVICE FROM Ellison TO WIN anything. Larry Elision= money Talks Bs walks
ORACLE WILL WIN With Help Or Not. :catchchicken:

GO ORACLE TEAM USA..WOOHOO

While we are waiting for the race this afternoon here is some good reading. An interview with Gino Morrelli about the origin of the boat rules for the current Cup. He has some interesting things to say about foiling and his ideas for the future of the boats.

http://www.sailingworld.com/blogs/racing/americas-cup/writing-the-rule

My statement wasn't meant to condone cheating. I repeated what a NASCAR crew chief had said when he got caught. He is now in charge of catching the cheaters in NASCAR. Irony, huh?
The 2 ideas my post was meant to convey was:
1. In order to maximize performance the grey areas of the rules must be thoroughly explored. Sometimes the line gets crossed.

2. Blatant cheating should be caught and punished according to the severity of the infractions.

yea but what do those guys know? they can only turn left and go around in circles?

we at least go around in triangles and other shapes 🙂

I repeated what a NASCAR crew chief had said

The mindset is the same between Jeff Gordon, Lewis Hamilton, Ken Block, and James Spithill.

that was one for the ages! can't wait for the next cup, can only imagine what improvements will be coming...friggin' space ships!

What a great comeback. I wonder how much of the performance improvement is from all the data acquisition and analysis done by the shore crew. Makes me wonder especially with Oracle being the funding. The sailors did a great job, but the boat prep and Performance analysis was a huge part of the win. For all us nerds out there to ponder.

at 8 to 1 i told my sons it was game,set, match, the kiwi boat was faster. i guess that it is never over until it is over. oracle changed the foils and tactician and they became faster and came back and won, amazing. despite a 2 race deficit. amazing!

Edited by marcs2 on Sep 26, 2013 - 01:55 PM.

Sorry but I just can't cheer for a crew that cheats! They are pathetic! Lets look at the real winners. The Kiwis - 90% Kiwi crew, USA - 1 crewman was american, The Kiwis spent 100 million, USA - 200 million, The Kiwis raced a Kiwi built boat, so did the US. Oh and lets not forget the Kiwis didn't cheat!!!! WIN to the Kiwis!!!!!

Lance Armstrong = Team Oracle - the only difference, both got caught, just one got to keep the win.

By the way the Kiwis will not race if the costs don't come down see Bloomberg News.

amazing comeback
amazing final race
couldn't ask for a more exciting race or series

shipchips1 wrote: Sorry but I just can't cheer for a crew that cheats! They are pathetic! Lets look at the real winners. The Kiwis - 90% Kiwi crew, USA - 1 crewman was american, The Kiwis spent 100 million, USA - 200 million, The Kiwis raced a Kiwi built boat, so did the US. Oh and lets not forget the Kiwis didn't cheat!!!! WIN to the Kiwis!!!!!

Lance Armstrong = Team Oracle - the only difference, both got caught, just one got to keep the win.

By the way the Kiwis will not race if the costs don't come down see Bloomberg News.

Only a very small part of the team was involved in the AC45 situation, and were not on the AC72.

The Kiwis got beat, fair and square. Statements made now about the next AC and cost do not mean much.

shipchips1 wrote: Sorry but I just can't cheer for a crew that cheats! They are pathetic! Lets look at the real winners. The Kiwis - 90% Kiwi crew, USA - 1 crewman was american, The Kiwis spent 100 million, USA - 200 million, The Kiwis raced a Kiwi built boat, so did the US. Oh and lets not forget the Kiwis didn't cheat!!!! WIN to the Kiwis!!!!!

😆 Thanks for that laugh...go USA! they deserve it..

Edited by TylerH on Sep 26, 2013 - 08:43 AM.

I'd rather be honest then impressive

the crews on the cup boats are hired on their ability, it is a meritocracy. they hire the best sailors and they are Kiwis.
if the americans were the best they would be hired in a new york minute but unfortunately they are not.