danielt1263 wrote: Here's a great YouTube video about the subject: https://youtu.be/K7h5X-tanfI
I am not a fan...
This guy said:
"grappnle anchor"? -
double the depth for anchor rode - pass on that advice
"I don't know if i have ever anchored a catamaran" - this i believe
adding a line to the bridal / forestay will load up many points of your rig, ( bow bridals, mast tang and side-stays tangs and every fitting in-between as well. and since a H16 relies on the jib halyard for tension when the jib is up ... you are working (stretching)your jib as well with every wave, - I would pass on that location to reeve your anchor line - ymmv
"Scope is the ratio of the length of deployed anchor rode to the height of the bow chock above the seabed. The greater the scope the more horizontal the pull on the anchor, and the better it will hold. Pegging 10:1 as the maximum practical scope, the table shows the average relative holding power associated with shorter scope."
MN3
I thought I was done with this one but then I saw the video and I just can't leave it be. What ever happened to simple is better? When I saw the video my first thought was if you follow that guy's advice, you're to see your boat where you don't want it. Way out there! Once you're sure the anchor is dug in you could shorten the scope up a little for convenance, but 2 to 1? Let's get realistic. Most all the time, if you feel a need to carry an anchor for emergencies, when you need it, your boat's going to be laying on its side. You'll be in the water or on the hull and you'll have to get the rode through a clip attached at the bow. Forget the bridle, it's a moot point in this circumstance. And nine times out of ten you won't have to bother anyway, only if you're drifting to somewhere you don't want to be before you get the boat righted. Two experienced adults should be able to right the boat quickly. Using an anchor for a mooring in shallow water while you set the boat up is no big deal. If you're out there and want to stop for a while, say to put your harness on, all you have to do is backwind the jib, let your main out all the way and fix your rudders hard alee and your boat will just sit there. One more thing, if you do anchor, always use three strand nylon as small as diameter you're comfortable with. The stretchiness will absorb shock and help prevent the anchor from breaking loose.
One more thing, if you do anchor, always use three strand nylon as small as diameter you're comfortable with. The stretchiness will absorb shock and help prevent the anchor from breaking loose.
100%
BTW: we island hop all day every day. Also barrier island hop (look up 3 Rooker and Anclote Key). It is critical to have an anchor in these locations because 1. there may be 10000 boats and no room to pull up on a beach, or on an island it may be rocky beaches or the only way to get in the lea is with an anchor
MN3
shortyfox wrote: I thought I was done with this one but then I saw the video and I just can't leave it be. What ever happened to simple is better? When I saw the video my first thought was if you follow that guy's advice, you're to see your boat where you don't want it. Way out there! Once you're sure the anchor is dug in you could shorten the scope up a little for convenance, but 2 to 1? Let's get realistic. Most all the time, if you feel a need to carry an anchor for emergencies, when you need it, your boat's going to be laying on its side. You'll be in the water or on the hull and you'll have to get the rode through a clip attached at the bow. Forget the bridle, it's a moot point in this circumstance. And nine times out of ten you won't have to bother anyway, only if you're drifting to somewhere you don't want to be before you get the boat righted. Two experienced adults should be able to right the boat quickly. Using an anchor for a mooring in shallow water while you set the boat up is no big deal. If you're out there and want to stop for a while, say to put your harness on, all you have to do is backwind the jib, let your main out all the way and fix your rudders hard alee and your boat will just sit there. One more thing, if you do anchor, always use three strand nylon as small as diameter you're comfortable with. The stretchiness will absorb shock and help prevent the anchor from breaking loose.
I sail on the sea and the surf is dangerous everywhere but at the launching spot, so there’s plenty of “opportunity” to use the anchor. I’m not concerned about the stress on the boat if I attach it to the forestay bridles (or bowfoil in my case), because I will use it very occasionally, hopefully never. I’m sure that it takes more beating with regular sailing, but yes, if I used it often I’d probably do it differently. I think the key is to have the line properly stored in a (mesh) bag and easily accessible on the tramp, pre-set as much as possible. But also I don’t intend that it catches me too close to the surf, so I don’t approach to it. My concern is not so much capsizing but dismasting, rudder failure or something like that. Also being unable to right the boat fast enough. But if the distance is safe, the first attempt to right will probably be before throwing the anchor. Righting with two people on board is easy, I agree, but one of them might be left behind, that happens. I sail solo very often and have a righting pole, but things may get complicated anyway, I’ve sailed for a few decades and I’ve had many incidents, so I don’t take anything for granted, neither the anchor, its just my seat belt. I also carry a cell pone on my pdf and other safety measures and routine checks. What concerns me the most is whether the anchor will really hold the boat far enough from the surf.. it worked where i tested it but who knows. Other that that I should stay home, anyway.
Edited by Andinista on May 03, 2023 - 08:23 AM.
Also, the one left behind might be me.. I teach my crew to through the anchor but I don’t expect him/her to right the boat and rescue me.
Edited by Andinista on May 03, 2023 - 05:07 PM.
MN3 wrote: A single attachment point will cause your boat to dance around and very likely to try to sail away and risk your anchor to fail (unseat itself from the seafloor). You need a bridal setup on a catamaran. We would drill holes in our bows, refill the holes with epoxy and redrill a little smaller so no water can creep in and compromise anything.
Thanks, I can see why drilling attachment holes in the bows would get your bridle attachment points as far out front as possible to cause the boat to behave well on anchor, plus keep the bow tangs from doing double duty and absorbing stresses related to the anchor. I appreciate the photo detail [referring to the next photo after this, actually] and see what I believe are your bridle lines running from the tramp forward towards the attachment points on the bows. It looks like you keep them in that position while sailing, and I assume you do not have any problems with the jib sheets catching on them? I would've thought that could be a problem.
Edited by CatFan57 on May 03, 2023 - 06:06 PM.
MN3 wrote: Beer takes up a lot of room in a cooler, requires lots of ice, adds a bunch of weight, makes you piss a lot and personally gives me headaches. RUM on the other hand requires a lot less ice, weight, room, you pee less often and did not give me headaches unless .... well you know .... plus pirates drink rum, not beer and thanks to Johnny Depp - chicks dig pirates (see image below for proof) - ymmv
Edited by MN3 on May 01, 2023 - 07:49 PM.
So now i have a better idea why pirates drank rum. You actually caused me to look that up and that was a whole interesting story in itself - made from fermented molasses, which was a product of the sugar plantations in Brazil and the Caribbean, and easier for ships to carry than wine or beer. Didn't know that.
MN3 wrote: I had 2 different types of front tramps (used on both my mysteres) that held my anchor (after simply using a small duffle bag attached to the beam/hiking strap for years)
both of my front tramps used a pole to avoid drooping and to work optimally - top pic is actually a CF windsurfer mast top section.Homemade mesh front tramp - anchor, rightingbag and drybag would fit on there perfectly - no windage
you can see the anchor line is actually running from the bows back to the front beam. I had a plastic snap shackle that would capture a loop in anchor line to have it handy and easy to deploy (mostly to prevent it from dragging and paying out while underway)custom made front tramp (from Sunrise yacht co.) with pockets above (for anchor) and below (for righting bag). In this image you can just see the tramp with the anchor sticking out it's pocket. My spin pole tip is utilizing the holes in the bow - anchor is attached to the bow tangs - not optimal but I did that for many years, only had to replace 2 of the bow tangs (aka both) over the years (one was pre spin pole) both times there was a good deal of corrosion and i doubt the anchor line (and associated tugging in wind/waves) were to blame, but still not optimal
Edited by MN3 on May 01, 2023 - 07:47 PM.
Excellent details shown in the pictures, thanks for sharing these. Even though your anchor lines in the second photo are attached to the bow tangs rather than the holes at the bow tips, it looks like they are way down low and presumably well out of way of any loose or flopping jib sheets that potentially get away from you temporarily (in answer to my question above).
I really admire how you fitted out your boat for serious and fun cruising and exploration of the islands, bays and gulf you sail in. That looks like a really purpose built setup with a good amount of thought put into it, my compliments.
Edited by CatFan57 on May 03, 2023 - 06:22 PM.
shortyfox wrote: Most all the time, if you feel a need to carry an anchor for emergencies, when you need it, your boat's going to be laying on its side. You'll be in the water or on the hull and you'll have to get the rode through a clip attached at the bow. Forget the bridle, it's a moot point in this circumstance.
I can see why when you're lying on your side and want to deploy an anchor you've got some issues to deal with aside from having a nice bridle setup in place. In fact, having an anchor zipped in a bag strapped down on top of the tramp behind the mast is presumably gonna involve some real maneuvering around to get it unstrapped, unzipped and deployed. I'm guessing that's probably why MN3 has his anchor in a bag on the underside of the tramp to give easier access when capsized and standing on a hull.
Edited by CatFan57 on May 03, 2023 - 06:41 PM.
Andinista wrote: I sail on the sea and the surf is dangerous everywhere but at the launching spot, so there’s plenty of “opportunity” to use the anchor. I’m not concerned about the stress on the boat if I attach it to the forestay bridles (or bowfoil in my case), ....
I think the key is to have the line properly stored in a (mesh) bag and easily accessible on the tramp, pre-set as much as possible. ... I sail solo very often and have a righting pole, but things may get complicated anyway, I’ve sailed for a few decades and I’ve had many incidents, so I don’t take anything for granted, neither the anchor, its just my seat belt.
Thanks for posting the link to the picture of your bowfoil. Now I understand what that is. Agreed that ideally you have everything pre-set and easily accessible. I'm sailing solo mostly, which obviously can present a righting problem with an 18' boat, so that's why I got this thread going. Since you sail regularly in the ocean and often by yourself, you obviously must have a lot of experience getting/being prepared. And getting carried into the surf doesn't sound too appealing - although potentially getting carried out to sea when dismasted or with broken rudders sounds worse.
In fact, having an anchor zipped in a bag strapped down on top of the tramp behind the mast is presumably gonna involve some real maneuvering around to get it unstrapped, unzipped and deployed.
that bag was very easy to use. All i did was secure 1 of the 2 straps to the beam/hiking strap (If i recall i used the shackle that the hiking strap was attached to). not zipped shut. anchor was probably just tied to the mast base back then and i had no idea originally to use it in a capsize.
all the anchor line was either in the bag, or probably in the tramp pocket (this was back in the late 90's). it was easy to get to at anytime while the mast was pointing up. easy if i capsized on the side the bag was on and a bit of a stretch (while standing on the hull) post flip if on the dry side.
If i were you .... I would just find some cheap bag with loops (handles), maybe steal one of your wifes/daughters LV or other bag and try it. as per the 4lbs anchor - the alum anchor i showed was 4lbs - it is alum and light, a cheapo walmart steel one will be double the weight but work just as well (for 1/10th the cost)
the bag i used was a cheap carry on flight bag that came with my cheap 3 piece travel kit. the zipper rusted and was not usable after a few sails. That bag lasted about 5 years.
similar to this but smaller (and dark blue)
this one would work very well and since it is used, it is "discounted"
Edited by MN3 on May 03, 2023 - 06:52 PM.
MN3
That looks like a really purpose built setup with a good amount of thought put into it, my compliments.
more like trial and lots of error, dumb luck and most of all - a wealth of knowledge that i stole from others whom knew much much much much ...... more than I.
MN3
Thanks for posting the link to the picture of your bowfoil. Now I understand what that is.
IIRC: Nacra 5.8's NA (north america) had oversized jibs and required a bow foil to be added to spread out the load - otherwise the hulls were pulled inward too much
MN3
When I was shopping, I was trying to find a boat that didn't have the bow-foil (Topcat calls it a power-spreader.) Mine doesn't have the inverted dolphin striker on it. Instead I have a line that goes from the bridle to an eye on the middle of the spreader to keep it from bending down.
CatFan57 wrote: [quote=Andinista]I sail on the sea and the surf is dangerous everywhere but at the launching spot, so there’s plenty of “opportunity” to use the anchor. I’m not concerned about the stress on the boat if I attach it to the forestay bridles (or bowfoil in my case), ....
I think the key is to have the line properly stored in a (mesh) bag and easily accessible on the tramp, pre-set as much as possible. ... I sail solo very often and have a righting pole, but things may get complicated anyway, I’ve sailed for a few decades and I’ve had many incidents, so I don’t take anything for granted, neither the anchor, its just my seat belt.
Thanks for posting the link to the picture of your bowfoil. Now I understand what that is. Agreed that ideally you have everything pre-set and easily accessible. I'm sailing solo mostly, which obviously can present a righting problem with an 18' boat, so that's why I got this thread going. Since you sail regularly in the ocean and often by yourself, you obviously must have a lot of experience getting/being prepared. And getting carried into the surf doesn't sound too appealing - although potentially getting carried out to sea when dismasted or with broken rudders sounds worse.
You’re welcome!
Solo righting an 18ft cat is not easy. If you don’t capsize often, which isn’t a bad thing, you don’t get to practice much, so before you are able to master the technique and right your boat a reasonable % of the times, you will have to wait for a powerboat or to reach land. After the second failed attempt I decided to make myself a righting pole, which I successfully tested on light wind. That kept me from mastering the technique without it but I’m okay with that. I feel I might but haven’t really tried afterwards. If you decide to go that way, don’t make it too short, there are many videos suggesting boat width but I’d suggest to start with a longer one (I weight 85 kg, that’s a factor to consider). Something I forget too often is to release the downhaul, it seems a minor detail but it makes righting harder and favors that the boat starts sailing right after righting, which means it’s harder to get back onboard.
Edited by Andinista on May 04, 2023 - 08:27 AM.
Mine doesn't have the inverted dolphin striker
aka pelican striker
MN3
MN3 wrote:
In fact, having an anchor zipped in a bag strapped down on top of the tramp behind the mast is presumably gonna involve some real maneuvering around to get it unstrapped, unzipped and deployed.
that bag was very easy to use. All i did was secure 1 of the 2 straps to the beam/hiking strap (If i recall i used the shackle that the hiking strap was attached to). not zipped shut. anchor was probably just tied to the mast base back then and i had no idea originally to use it in a capsize.
all the anchor line was either in the bag, or probably in the tramp pocket (this was back in the late 90's). it was easy to get to at anytime while the mast was pointing up. easy if i capsized on the side the bag was on and a bit of a stretch (while standing on the hull) post flip if on the dry side.
If i were you .... I would just find some cheap bag with loops (handles), maybe steal one of your wifes/daughters LV or other bag and try it. as per the 4lbs anchor - the alum anchor i showed was 4lbs - it is alum and light, a cheapo walmart steel one will be double the weight but work just as well (for 1/10th the cost)
the bag i used was a cheap carry on flight bag that came with my cheap 3 piece travel kit. the zipper rusted and was not usable after a few sails. That bag lasted about 5 years.
similar to this but smaller (and dark blue)
this one would work very well and since it is used, it is "discounted"
https://www.luxedh.com/products/louis-vuitton-monogram-keepall-50-shg-35115?gclid=CjwKCAjwjMiiBhA4EiwAZe6jQ9MgYqXwpqtts27tt7Lv6v4bZWde_zusjRKRuj_XIOGpxysy4Y5ZNRoCEEYQAvD_BwE Edited by MN3 on May 03, 2023 - 06:52 PM.
Okay, I was meaning to say getting access to an anchor and line strapped in a bag on top of the tramp behind the mast would seem to require some maneuvering when the boat is capsized and you're standing on a hull. Not impossible, but some maneuvering when the boat is capsized and the top of the tramp is faced away from you while you are standing on the hull. Yes, I see it would be no problem when the mast is facing up.
Thanks for the tips on the bags. I like the 1st one ($22) but clicked on the link for the second one and saw it's a Louis Vuitton designer bag for $1,500!!, LOL, good sense of humor. For sure that would be my wife's choice if i could afford it. ... Could afford a wife I mean. 😆
Edited by CatFan57 on May 04, 2023 - 10:08 AM.
The problem with putting a bag on top of the tramp behind the mast is that it's in the way of the jib and spinnaker sheet blocks on my boat. I have my righting line around the base of the mast and then threaded into the trampoline lacing on the underside of the tramp.
That way it will be easy to get to and not in the way on top of the tramp. Although, once I capsize, I suspect it will be a huge PITA to re-store it.
MN3 wrote:
That looks like a really purpose built setup with a good amount of thought put into it, my compliments.
more like trial and lots of error, dumb luck and most of all - a wealth of knowledge that i stole from others whom knew much much much much ...... more than I.
That's why I'm on here - trying to cut down the trial and error and steal some of that wealth of knowledge for myself. Including why pirates drank rum. "Fifteen men on the Dead Man's Chest - Yo ho, ho and a bottle of rum!" I found out "Dead Man's Chest" originally was/came from the name of an island in the British Virgin Islands.
Edited by CatFan57 on May 04, 2023 - 10:45 AM.
Andinista wrote: Solo righting an 18ft cat is not easy. After the second failed attempt I decided to make myself a righting pole, which I successfully tested on light wind. If you decide to go that way, don’t make it too short, there are many videos suggesting boat width but I’d suggest to start with a longer one (I weight 85 kg, that’s a factor to consider).
I'm wondering what one you use. As of now, I'm intending to build/carry the one shown in this video, which has the length of the boat width. This seems like the best one I've found, and it seems like that length should be enough, given that you put your weight all the way out on the end. Downside (which doesn't seem so bad at all) is I'd have to carry it across my hulls in front of my front cross beam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTRS5pTZGV4
This is the page showing how to construct it, if anyone is interested: https://get.google.com/albumarchive/111524940357814751051/album/AF1QipMisKESheLDFCxHw22RSo0qreD8H8EO6-QFAgGl?feat=directlink
Edited by CatFan57 on May 04, 2023 - 11:10 AM.
Including why pirates drank rum.
Rum was abundant on islands that grew sugar cane.
MN3
Okay, I was meaning to say getting access to an anchor and line strapped in a bag on top of the tramp behind the mast would seem to require some maneuvering when the boat is capsized and you're standing on a hull.
Requires you to stand on a hiking strap
MN3
For sure that would be my wife's choice if i could afford it. ... Could afford a wife I mean.
HAHAHA
MN3
CatFan57 wrote: [quote=Andinista]Solo righting an 18ft cat is not easy. After the second failed attempt I decided to make myself a righting pole, which I successfully tested on light wind. If you decide to go that way, don’t make it too short, there are many videos suggesting boat width but I’d suggest to start with a longer one (I weight 85 kg, that’s a factor to consider).
I'm wondering what one you use. As of now, I'm intending to build/carry the one shown in this video, which has the length of the boat width. This seems like the best one I've found, and it seems like that length should be enough, given that you put your weight all the way out on the end. Downside (which doesn't seem so bad at all) is I'd have to carry it across my hulls in front of my front cross beam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTRS5pTZGV4
This is the page showing how to construct it, if anyone is interested: https://get.google.com/albumarchive/111524940357814751051/album/AF1QipMisKESheLDFCxHw22RSo0qreD8H8EO6-QFAgGl?feat=directlink Edited by CatFan57 on May 04, 2023 - 11:10 AM.
The same concept, with two main differences:
- Instead of a plate to be inserted on the daggerboard trunk I use a loop of line near the end of the pole that loops around the daggerboard (easier to implement and to store)
- I store the pole parallel rather than perpendicular to the hulls. This way you may test it extensively before cutting it to the final length.
Here is the proof of concept..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKuSSZ7JxBA
Sitting on top and moving backwards as in your video is better than hanging from the pole. The advantage is that the center of mass is further out, if you hang from the pole with the feet on the hull it is no different than using a righting line without pole. If you hang from the hands only, your weight is reduced as your legs start sinking.
Edited by Andinista on May 05, 2023 - 09:15 AM.
Storing it underneath the tramp has a couple disadvantages:
If stored along the center of the tramp it is painful to step on it at each tack. Then I stored it about a foot from one hull, but the tramp started to see some damage over time. Now I store it very close to one hull, where it won't touch the tramp.
Edited by Andinista on May 05, 2023 - 09:16 AM.
Instead of rolling the line around the pole I keep it on the boat, similar to a Hawaiian righting system: it’s a continuous line threaded through SS rings at each corner of the tramp. There is a loop knot on the line at each side at the right position, to hook to a carabiner near the outer end of the pole. (The carabiner is attached to a loop of line around the pole, not directly to an eye strap). I originally had a take away shock cord to manage the excess of line, but I removed it, it was too much stuff under the tramp. I roll the excess of line at the rear beam, around the the tramp cords, attaching the pole there at the same time. I have a bungee with a hook to pull the end of the line after rolling it. At the front beam I have another bungee with a hook to fix the pole at that end.
Not really a continuous line, sorry, It starts and ends at each side of the rear beam
Andinista wrote: The same concept, with two main differences:
- Instead of a plate to be inserted on the daggerboard trunk I use a loop of line near the end of the pole that loops around the daggerboard (easier to implement and to store)
- I store the pole parallel rather than perpendicular to the hulls. This way you may test it extensively before cutting it to the final length.
I had to be away for a couple of days, but thanks very much for replying with this explanation of your setup. (Including your subsequent posts, which I also read.) I cannot see the youtube video you posted showing the "proof of concept" in your next post because Youtube is telling me the video is private. Is is possible you could change that so the video can be viewed?
I am intrigued by your description, though, because that plate that is inserted on or near the daggerboard trunk is the one thing I don't like about the design I linked to. It doesn't seem like a great idea to have a small area of plywood plate putting a lot of pressure on a concentrated area on the hull, so I was thinking what to do as an an alternative. The idea of a loop around the daggerboard to hold the pole in place sounds intriguing - but it makes me question if that wouldn't result in the loop being still looped around the daggerboard once the boat rights(?). Maybe if I saw it I would understand better.
Interesting about the Hawaiian style line system under the tramp, and also the storage system under the tramp and close alongside one hull. I'm wondering what boat you're using this on and whether you are getting drag from water hitting the pole, etc. when you're in choppy seas.
Edited by CatFan57 on May 06, 2023 - 02:56 PM.
Fixed the video. That was before cutting the pole, it’s shorter now. And the loop isn’t made or a strap but just a line now.
Yes, the loop stays on the daggerboard after righting, just lift the daggerboard to release it. Recovering the pole might be a bit messi but not too terrible.