Righting Question

"Diddly Squat" gets my vote. 😎
I agree that walking back towards the stern seems counter-intuitive and would tend to drive your bows downwind instead. I haven't successfully righted my H16 on my own yet (motor boater assist the one time I turtled). So, admittedly, I don't have first-hand experience but the theory seems sound that the bows become the pivot point and should come around to pointing upwind with weight on them.

I know after capsizing a Hobie Wave, I stood on the bow and would even lean a bit forward rather than straight out. I have always been able to right the boat pretty easily.

On my Tiapan, my 150# weight didn't seem to affect the disposition of the boat at all when capsized.

I haven't capsized my Topcat yet... It's bigger than the Wave but smaller than the Taipan... Time will tell.

Okay, thanks for the initial replies. Glad to hear I'm not the only one perplexed by this one, or the only one who found that his weight placed on a particular part of a certain boat didn't appear to do DICKIE'S DONK for the cause. (Or is it dicky's donk?, or dickey donk? - damn, could be time for another poll....)

PS, looks like "diddly squat" has come out of the gate strong and taken the early lead, thanks to dirtybanana.

Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 25, 2023 - 06:41 PM.

Those instructions in the 18-2 manual were copied from the 16/18 manual and do not apply to your Two, really.
When you capsize from a strong gust the mast is rarely pointed toward the wind, because it's the wind that blew you over.
If you pitchpole from a control issue, i.e. steering, weight distribution, wave riding, etc., then your mast could end up pointed anywhere, even turtle.
The first thing to do is release the mainsheet and jib sheet, then lift the mast just out of the water. The loose sails will hang down, the wind will catch in them from either direction and push the mast around. Moving your bodies while holding the righting line will help a little but you want to be centered around the front crossbar area.
I brought this up early on but it was never changed.

I had never bought into the idea of getting the bows into the wind. It took too long to do that. We would go out in 20+ knot winds and see how far we can drive the bows into the mud (lake is only 4-6' deep). We had a lot of capsize practice. We always had the mast to wind to keep it out of the mud. When the boat started to right, we would walk forward slightly and stand up on the leeward hull as the boat came upright. This was 30 years ago and we were much more nimble than now. But, as mentioned by Bob above, make sure all sheets and traveler are completely loose. Keeping traveler loose also is the key to keeping it from flopping over on ya. If you cannot stay on the hull while it rights, hang on to the low hull as it rights. The boat will have a very hard time going back over with one or two people on the low hull (especially if everything is loose). If you choose to rotate the bows towards the wind, putting weight on the bows will left the sterns and allow the boat to settle. The wind and waves will determine how successful this will be. I've seen people fight with this for 30 minutes instead of just righting the boat. This is one reason we are hosting a capsize clinic.

klozhald wrote: Those instructions in the 18-2 manual were copied from the 16/18 manual and do not apply to your Two, really.
* * *
I brought this up early on but it was never changed.

Interesting. Sounds like maybe you worked for the company back when this manual was created and you suggested this instruction be removed?

Anyway, I'm not trying to make a big deal about the manual - just trying to see if there's a reason someone would "walk towards the transom until the bows are positioned [into the wind]," and so far, nobody seems to see one, no matter what size catamaran.

Thanks for the other comments about righting. I think I had an occasion (maybe it was the one mentioned above) where I capsized and ended up with my bows pointed away from the wind, which meant my mast (lying down in the water) was basically perpendicular to the direction of the wind. The back end of the sail (leech), although down in the water, was pointed towards the wind. In that orientation, as I started pulling the mast up, the mainsail obviously started coming with it, and the wind began hitting the mainsail and flowing across it in a backwards direction to the normal flow. That really effectively just drove the mainsail and mast back down into the water. Since the leech of the sail was still trailing down in the water, the further the mast/mainsail came out of the water, the more main surface area was exposed to the wind, and the stronger the wind force was driving them back down, sort of pinning them there. There was no way to get the boat righted in that orientation.

Which is how I got on this topic of how to get the bows reoriented. If anybody has any suggestions for getting your boat reoriented from that position, I'd be interested to hear them.

Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 26, 2023 - 02:27 PM.

catfan57 wrote: Sounds like maybe you worked for the company back when this manual was created and you suggested this instruction be removed?

I was Commodore of the local Prindle Fleet and bought an 18-2 early on. Got to know a few names in the company is all. Good people, they just weren't interested in reprinting the manual.

So I stood on the bow and waited. Long story short, my weight there (I weigh around 185 and definitely more with gear on) did exactly DIDLY SQUAT to bring the bows into the wind

Been there before. I dropped my legs in the water to use my body as a drogue and the cat's attitude was unaffected. I have since made a real drogue to clip to the bridle for the next time.
Thou shall not drift anymore!
However, now I have wings...and the boat will not act as it once did. More likely the slowed drift will cause the mast and skipping sail to sink to the muddy depths. Alas.

Bow standing worked well for me on my mystere - can't recall on my hobie18 but i think it worked for me then too

I have since made a real drogue to clip to the bridle for the next time.
Thou shall not drift anymore!

Very good idea

For me the failproof answer was to carry an anchor and deploy it first chance possible after a capsize. it will 100% get your bows into the wind every time (unless the wind is so strong that you are moving so fast your anchor is floating or dragging - that is very rare and a chain on the anchor line will eliminate almost all chances of that

texastuma wrote: But, as mentioned by Bob above, make sure all sheets and traveler are completely loose. Keeping traveler loose also is the key to keeping it from flopping over on ya.

Good point re the traveler(!) - I usually just think about loosening the main and jib sheets. Will remember the traveler next time as well.

And make sure the tiller extension is out of the way. I can't count the number of times I had the mainsheet and traveller loose but the extension interfered with them letting out.

MN3 wrote:

I have since made a real drogue to clip to the bridle for the next time.
Thou shall not drift anymore!

Very good idea

For me the failproof answer was to carry an anchor and deploy it first chance possible after a capsize. it will 100% get your bows into the wind every time (unless the wind is so strong that you are moving so fast your anchor is floating or dragging - that is very rare and a chain on the anchor line will eliminate almost all chances of that

YES, THIS!!! This is what I think I want at this point. An almost fail-proof way to stop drifting and get the bows into the wind every time, with an anchor. No more drifting helplessly towards jetties, piers, or some other potential disaster while your boat is spun the wrong way and won't come up. Plus I'm thinking even if the anchor is dragging, in most cases that should still be great to slow you down and get the bows pointed into the wind/current, right?

I was just in West Marine last week looking over the anchor choices and trying to assess what would be the smallest and easiest stowable/deployable anchor for the job. Do you have any suggestions on what you found was best for this, MN3? Including what diameter/length line you were using? And how you were stowing them for good neat storage but also easy deployment when capsized??

I'm thinking of getting one of these "folding grapnel" anchors, since they are light and fold down to a slim size, but the arms unfold to catch or drag on the bottom. Shown here https://www.westmarine.com/suncor-folding-grapnel-anchors-P005_153_003_004.html

I'm thinking maybe a 5 pounder would be enough?, since I'm only trying to slow down or stop a light catamaran and most of the bay where I sail is 20' deep or less (although a few places to 65')??

PS: On top of that, I think I'm gonna make a righting pole to get some super leverage for righting while single-handed. This looks like the best one I've come across: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTRS5pTZGV4&feature=g-upl

Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 27, 2023 - 12:42 PM.

I know MN3 sails with an anchor but I hesitate because of the added weight and potential boat damage. Drogues are cheap, foldable, and stow in a tramp pocket. You only need 6ft of line and works in any depth of water. I made a 30" one out of an old 420 mainsail.
https://www.amazon.com/Anchor-Floating-Lightweight-Compact-Fishing/dp/B09BD8KYP4?th=1

rch701 wrote: I know MN3 sails with an anchor but I hesitate because of the added weight and potential boat damage. Drogues are cheap, foldable, and stow in a tramp pocket. You only need 6ft of line and works in any depth of water. I made a 30" one out of an old 420 mainsail.
https://www.amazon.com/Anchor-Floating-Lightweight-Compact-Fishing/dp/B09BD8KYP4?th=1

I'm glad you brought this to my attention and I like those advantages you listed: light, easy to stow, work in any depth, only need 6ft of line (in comparison to a lot longer line for anchor). I am worried with anchors about the weight, possibility for damage, storage question, etc., especially because I tend to push it and get capsizes where stuff gets thrown around.

Thanks for the link to that Amazon one, looks like a cheap and easy way to test one out. Maybe I'll go for this first and see how it works for me. How to you hook it to the front of your boat? [Edit]

Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 27, 2023 - 05:29 PM.

danielt1263 wrote: And make sure the tiller extension is out of the way. I can't count the number of times I had the mainsheet and traveller loose but the extension interfered with them letting out.

Okay, another good point, I'll keep that one in mind now too, thanks.

Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 27, 2023 - 01:29 PM.

If you're sailing an 18ft cat and unless you're a very heavy person, odds are you won't right it alone without a water bag or one of those poles that folds under the tramp. At 150, I can't right a 16 by myself and in all my years of sailing, I've never capsized by myself. Of course, I'm more conservative when alone, and I always carry a righting line. But I know my time's coming and hopefully someone will help like I have helped several times. I've capsized plenty of times when double handed, and righting has always been easy even on a 20-footer. If I remember correctly, the boat always seemed to swing around on its own, the sail acting as a drogue pointing towards the wind as it lays in the water. About anchors, I sometimes use one as a temporary mooring with a bleach bottle to mark where it is. The beach where I launch is rocky and there's no way my hulls are going on the beach. It's a four-pound anchor with no chain and I have to reach down and push the flukes in. Once it's in nothings pulling it out, it'll break first. But sometimes I take it with me and yes, storage can be a problem but what seems to work okay is having it in a small bag pushed up against the main beam right at the mast step. What I also did was cut an inch off of each end of the stock to make it fit in the bag easier. Now that makes it a little harder for it to set on its own, but it was worth it. I've never had a flailing jib sheet catch on it. Cats tend to sail around on anchor and a bridle helps. Unfortunately, the only place to tie the bridle are the bow tangs but they should never be that loaded anyway on anchor and shouldn't be a problem. And one other thing, if you use too much rode, your boat will sail around on anchor more.

If I remember correctly, the boat always seemed to swing around on its own, the sail acting as a drogue pointing towards the wind as it lays in the water.

not sure i agree - lots of boats will just sail away with the tramp as the sail -

Cats tend to sail around on anchor and a bridle helps. Unfortunately, the only place to tie the bridle are the bow tangs

just drill a few holes in your bow tips - refill with some epoxy and then redrill a little smaller - now you have holes for your bridal that wont seep water into your bows/glass

And one other thing, if you use too much rode, your boat will sail around on anchor more.

not ben my experience with a bridal. more wind and waves require more rode

Edited by MN3 on Apr 27, 2023 - 07:30 PM.

Do you have any suggestions on what you found was best for this, MN3?

FORTRESS MODE FX-7. only 4lbs - will hold A LOT of boat

https://fortressanchors.com/anchors/fortress-anchors/#fortressselection

Plus I'm thinking even if the anchor is dragging, in most cases that should still be great to slow you down and get the bows pointed into the wind/current, right?

Didn't slow down my cat when my anchor line was tripped by another cat on anchor that flipped (we had a front come through overnight while island camping). We had to use a power boat and go dead-down-wind where my boat was moving pretty quickly in reverse

I'm thinking of getting one of these "folding grapnel" anchors, since they are light and fold down to a slim size, but the arms unfold to catch or drag on the bottom. Shown here https://www.westmarine.co…rs-P005_153_003_004.html

I have not had great success in our grassy/sandy/mucky bottoms with those. I was also told they can pop out of the water with enough (wind) force but never saw anything remotely like it ... but who knows

And how you were stowing them for good neat storage but also easy deployment when capsized??

Bill has it correct "storage can be a problem but what seems to work okay is having it in a small bag pushed up against the main beam right at the mast step." - I used to have a small duffle type bag tied to the front beam/hiking strap area on my hobies. All my mystere fleet guys woud just stuff their steel walmart danforth anchors into the front tramp pocket - this isn't ideal in my world as it would rip up the pocket eventually and is why a bag is better in my mind

They also make a Magnesium/alum one Fortress Guardian G-7 2.9lb Anchor. They break down pretty easy too but more things to go wrong.

18-2 was the first beach cat that I owned myself. Five or six boats and 23+ years later I have an N20C and just a little more experience than I did back then.

The idea of moving your weight forward is to let the wind pivot the boat because of increased drag on the bows, less on the stern. 18-2 should be easy to right and pivot. If you can't get it to spin, sit on the hull and put your legs in the water. In light air, not necessary, but in anything over 5, you'll need to get the boat to rotate. Remember to have your crew move forward as well, doesn't matter if you're up front, if they're in the back.

In 8-10+, once you get the bows into the wind, the boat will almost right itself.

I can tell you the the 20C is significantly harder to get to rotate. I've not flipped it myself, but every friend that I've let drive has.... more than once, lol. The bows are huge and very rounded, sitting with legs in the water is a must to get it upright.

I wouldn't carry an anchor, too much chance to punch a hole in a hull or get stuff really tangled up IMO.

I wouldn't carry an anchor, too much chance to punch a hole in a hull or get stuff really tangled up IMO

Almost every cat in our group (7 or 8 mysteres, a few g-cats, a few supercats, a prindle or 2) all carried anchors for my 10 years of saiing with that crew, I never saw a hull get damaged.

now it does require being secured well with a bungee or strap and the anchor line needs to be managed well or it will fall in the drink, and pay out if you are not careful. what a drag!

back on sept 12th 2001 our buddies (Zack and Mikey) learned a big lesson. While the entire USA and 1/2 the world was in shock over the horrors of the day before, they went out sailing. they were the only people out. No sailboats, no power boats, and i think the CoastGaurd /FWWC were mostly on high alert and not doing regular patrols. they sailed all day. Around dusk as they came back into hurricane pass (a mile from the beach) they both came in-board and watched the mast fall over. something had came loose on the stay aloft and they didn't realize they (being double trapped out) were keeping the mast up. No paddles, no water, no cellphones nor radios, no sunscreen, no anchor (but they had beer). We get strong tides in the pass and the tide sucked them back out into the gulf. they spent a cold night wrapped up in a jibs and main. (Possibly) The only reason they made it back was a shrimp boat was coming in early to miss a storm/baby hurricane, spotted them and towed them home.

I was in a local sailing shop the next day (possibly a few days later) when Zack came in and told me the story. After that day i made sure i always had the things he didn't. Water, sunscreen, paddle, and anchor. Only time any of us sailed without an anchor was during a race when there were chase boats and every ounce of extra weight was definatly the reason you didn't win the race.... - ymmv

shortyfox wrote: About anchors, I sometimes use one as a temporary mooring with a bleach bottle to mark where it is. The beach where I launch is rocky and there's no way my hulls are going on the beach. It's a four-pound anchor with no chain and I have to reach down and push the flukes in. Once it's in nothings pulling it out, it'll break first. But sometimes I take it with me and yes, storage can be a problem but what seems to work okay is having it in a small bag pushed up against the main beam right at the mast step. What I also did was cut an inch off of each end of the stock to make it fit in the bag easier. Cats tend to sail around on anchor and a bridle helps. Unfortunately, the only place to tie the bridle are the bow tangs but they should never be that loaded anyway on anchor and shouldn't be a problem.

Okay thanks, that's another vote (along with MN3) for a 4-pound anchor being sufficient, and the kind with flukes (and zhopper points out the 2.9lb Fortress). Think I'll probably go for a cheapo of same fluke design, but these are the kind of opinions/info I enjoy getting on here. Don't want to carry any more than minimum effective size/weight. My spot right behind the mast is already taken up with my tramp pocket, filled to bulging with righting line, so I'd have to attach the bag with anchor in it more to the side.

Still, thinking maybe I'll test out a drogue 1st. But have been in situations where having an anchor would've been really valuable even with no capsize involved. Like the time got becalmed and the current/tide was pulling us out the harbor mouth towards a fishing fleet and even worse the big commercial shipping lanes with the massive container ships, tankers, etc. That was one sh*t feeling sitting there basically helpless. Don't feel like repeating it.

Edited by CatFan57 on Apr 29, 2023 - 12:05 PM.

Have been in situations where having an anchor would've been really valuable though even with no capsize involved. Like the time got becalmed and the current/tide was pulling us out the harbor mouth towards a fishing fleet and even worse the big commercial shipping lanes with the massive container ships, tankers, etc. That was one sh*t feeling sitting there basically helpless. Don't feel like repeating it.

Yes. I can recount a couple of similar situations, one of which involved a de-masting that involved getting blown into an oyster encrusted seawall. I won't go into the gory details. One thing that is very problematic with small cats is how do you bow anchor unless you are in very shallow water, like to set up the boat for instance, or like MN3 suggest, to turn the bows into the wind to facilitate easier righting. In the latter case, presumably the rode is tied to the mast step and since you're in the water it's no big deal to move the rode to the bow and put it through a carabiner or similar device but always leave the bitter end tied otherwise you could find out what "bitter end" really means! But assuming you just want to anchor for whatever other reason, and it's too deep to get off the boat? The only thing I can see is having the anchor stowed right behind the mast step as mentioned before, and having the rode go through a bullet block at one of the bows and then back to the mast step where it's tied off. Of course, this will be too much clutter for most of us. A few cats have front tramps, like Hobie Getaway, Hobie 21SC and G-Cats. With them, no problem. Most of the time however, I choose to sail my G-Cat without the front tramp so I would be curious to know if there's any other way. There are certainly pros and cons about front tramps but that's a whole other thread. One more thing, the stock on a danforth style anchor has pretty rough ends that could damage your tramp. You can round them off on a grinder and it won't compromise the performance of the anchor.

and having the rode go through a bullet block at one of the bows and then back to the mast step where it's tied off

I do something like that: a separate line goes from the mast step, through the center of the bowfoil, and back to the mast step. Both ends end in a carabiner at the mast step, so i can remove either of them: the lower one for the anchor line or the upper one for towing the boat (that part of the line goes in front and above the bowfoil dolphin striker). At the bow foil there is a knot, the line doesn’t run through. The anchor line is tied at the mast step too, but has a second carabiner at the right position to attach the end of the line described. (Hope my English is good enough…) I through the anchor first and then deal with the carabiners. Its a bit more complicated than I’d wish but if I get confused I may also use the line as a guide for the anchor carabiner, and manually push it forward part of the way.

The double function is what makes it complex, but setting a line for towing is actually the hardest to achieve in my case, with the bow foil. So judge with that in mind..

CATAMARAN ANCHOR OR DROGUE LINE RIGGING/STOWAGE, WITH OR WITHOUT A BRIDLE, TO BE CARRIED ONBOARD WHILE SAILING

Sorry, I had to be away from this thread for a couple days, but I made the above mini-heading because I'm glad to see this discussion came around to how to rig/run/stow lines for use with an anchor or drogue, possibly with or without a bridle, cuz that's what I've been thinking about. Was thinking maybe I should have made this the start of a new thread, but posted the mini-heading instead.

rch701 wrote: I have since made a real drogue to clip to the bridle for the next time.

I'm wondering what kind of bridle arrangement you use and how you store it to be used when you want to deploy and clip your drogue line to the bridle. I mean, I understand the idea of a bridle consisting of two lines of equal length, each attached to a bow tang on the right and left and meeting in the middle. But are you leaving this arrangement in place connected to the bow tangs while you're sailing? And if so, how are you keeping it out of the way and not dragging, etc.? Or maybe you're keeping your bridle in your drogue bag along with the drogue and deploying them both at the same time?

MN3, were you using some type of bridle arrangement for your onboard anchor, or just paying it out from a single attachment point someplace, like at/near the base of the mast where your anchor was stored? It sounds like whatever arrangement you had always worked for you anytime you capsized or otherwise needed it.

shortyfox wrote: But assuming you just want to anchor for whatever other reason, and it's too deep to get off the boat? The only thing I can see is having the anchor stowed right behind the mast step as mentioned before, and having the rode go through a bullet block at one of the bows and then back to the mast step where it's tied off. Of course, this will be too much clutter for most of us.

Sounds like maybe you're not using a bridle with the anchor(?? not sure). I'm not really following Andinista's description because I don't know what a bow foil is.

Btw MN3, I posted my post about wishing I had an anchor when I was getting involuntarily sucked out of the harbor to the ocean before even seeing your incredible story about the friends who got dismasted, sucked out to the gulf and forced to spend a cold night wrapped in sails with no coast guard active the day after 9/11. Wow, what a story! That's the kind of experience I was having visions of while taking my "free ride" out to the ocean (add in possibly getting run over in the day or night by a commercial vessel - although I would've been able to call the coast guard, not that I want to rely on that as an out). Excellent safety point too:

MN3 wrote: After that day i made sure i always had the things he didn't. Water, sunscreen, paddle, and anchor.

However, I have to point out you omitted beer. 🙂

Edited by CatFan57 on May 01, 2023 - 06:08 PM.

MN3, were you using some type of bridle arrangement for your onboard anchor, or just paying it out from a single attachment point someplace, like at/near the base of the mast where your anchor was stored? It sounds like whatever arrangement you had always worked for you anytime you capsized or otherwise needed it.

A single attachment point will cause your boat to dance around and very likely to try to sail away and risk your anchor to fail (unseat itself from the seafloor). You need a bridal setup on a catamaran. We would drill holes in our bows, refill the holes with epoxy and redrill a little smaller so no water can creep in and compromise anything.

However, I have to point out you omitted beer.

Beer takes up a lot of room in a cooler, requires lots of ice, adds a bunch of weight, makes you piss a lot and personally gives me headaches. RUM on the other hand requires a lot less ice, weight, room, you pee less often and did not give me headaches unless .... well you know .... plus pirates drink rum, not beer and thanks to Johnny Depp - chicks dig pirates (see image below for proof) - ymmv

Edited by MN3 on May 01, 2023 - 07:49 PM.

I had 2 different types of front tramps (used on both my mysteres) that held my anchor (after simply using a small duffle bag attached to the beam/hiking strap for years)
both of my front tramps used a pole to avoid drooping and to work optimally - top pic is actually a CF windsurfer mast top section.

Homemade mesh front tramp - anchor, rightingbag and drybag would fit on there perfectly - no windage

you can see the anchor line is actually running from the bows back to the front beam. I had a plastic snap shackle that would capture a loop in anchor line to have it handy and easy to deploy (mostly to prevent it from dragging and paying out while underway)

custom made front tramp (from Sunrise yacht co.) with pockets above (for anchor) and below (for righting bag). In this image you can just see the tramp with the anchor sticking out it's pocket. My spin pole tip is utilizing the holes in the bow - anchor is attached to the bow tangs - not optimal but I did that for many years, only had to replace 2 of the bow tangs (aka both) over the years (one was pre spin pole) both times there was a good deal of corrosion and i doubt the anchor line (and associated tugging in wind/waves) were to blame, but still not optimal

Edited by MN3 on May 01, 2023 - 07:47 PM.

Here's a great YouTube video about the subject: https://youtu.be/K7h5X-tanfI